Bean Bandits Levin 'Globetrotter'

[oldeskewltoy]

(04-28-2014 08:50 PM)Bean Bandit Wrote:  and here a graph of a single/combined adjustable damper they had on file for similar spring rates I asked for (6/4.5kg).

FINALLY... rates I'd be even slightly interested in... enough of the 8kg/6kg stuff

[Bean]

(04-29-2014 01:38 AM)oldeskewltoy Wrote:  

(04-28-2014 08:50 PM)Bean Bandit Wrote:  and here a graph of a single/combined adjustable damper they had on file for similar spring rates I asked for (6/4.5kg).

FINALLY... rates I'd be even slightly interested in... enough of the 8kg/6kg stuff

So true, for a pure street setup I'd even go softer - which they would offer too if so desired

[NoHachi]

Hmz, I would do a lot of research into the BC racing 3-way stuff etc. Could be a great deal, but would want to see independent traces of the adjuster settings before committing. There is a TON of shocks out there with lots of crosstalk and low speed adjusters that do didly squat, or different things at different times. That makes it nearly impossible to dial in a shock.

AST now also do a AE86 shock, branded Aragosta. Its in the newest hot version DVD on Dori Dori's Trueno. Doesn't seem like they have it dialed in quite yet. Will be interesting to see how this develops.

This BC/Stance shock has quite low digressive blow off (1ips). Perfect if you have a very good double digressive shock. But more difficult to dial in just so. The valving style I used for my graphs is more traditional rebound biased, with knee at 3ips.
HTS are known to work, Aragosta known not to work (yet), Stance will be interesting to see.

[Bean]

(04-29-2014 06:45 PM)NoHachi Wrote:  Hmz, I would do a lot of research into the BC racing 3-way stuff etc. Could be a great deal, but would want to see independent traces of the adjuster settings before committing. There is a TON of shocks out there with lots of crosstalk and low speed adjusters that do didly squat, or different things at different times. That makes it nearly impossible to dial in a shock.

AST now also do a AE86 shock, branded Aragosta. Its in the newest hot version DVD on Dori Dori's Trueno. Doesn't seem like they have it dialed in quite yet. Will be interesting to see how this develops.

This BC/Stance shock has quite low digressive blow off (1ips). Perfect if you have a very good double digressive shock. But more difficult to dial in just so. The valving style I used for my graphs is more traditional rebound biased, with knee at 3ips.
HTS are known to work, Aragosta known not to work (yet), Stance will be interesting to see.

BC and Aragosta/AST currently only offer 2 way as far as I know. I looked into them before - few pages back. It's there ER line (in the BC case), one thing that put me off there, they will only supply you with 6kg springs for the rear and ther damper graph are way over damped in higer speeds (more linear than digressive)

The communication and support from Stance was formidable to say the least so far, unlike many other brands (GAS, Koni, Bilstein to name a few). This is something I personaly find extremly aweful, yes the are bigshots in the market but that's no reason to not reply at all or reply in uninformative way to genuine requests from joe average. It's not like I'm sending out email asking for god like suspension for $100. I know it's not cheap but good things barely ever are.

[zenki]

I think i saw on driftworks that BC BR version has 4,5 for the rear. Or do they not sell these anymore?

I've been following this thread and doing abit of research for my own. I must admit making a decent suspension setup is more difficult than i thought.

[Bean]

(04-29-2014 09:52 PM)zenki Wrote:  I think i saw on driftworks that BC BR version has 4,5 for the rear. Or do they not sell these anymore?

I've been following this thread and doing abit of research for my own. I must admit making a decent suspension setup is more difficult than i thought.

They do now but only recently I guess, when I asked BC directly a few months ago the could only supply me with 6kg rears.

The biggest problem with suspension setups is that there's no one fits all solution. Everybody has his own preferences and level of comfort, let alone modifcations to the car.

For example, I will seem/stich weld my entire chassis (very long exhausting process) to run the 6/4.5kg setup as I think the chassis too soft. To put this in perspective, I managed to put a slight stress dent into my roof just behind the soonroof and b-pillar with my previous setup (HTS long stroke and stock spring, dampers on almost full stiff due to the stock springs) because I attacked one of the higher curbs on the Nurburgring a bit too agressive.

Like mentioned before I like the response I got from Stance. Unlike others the didn't simply say we can do what ever you want but actually reasoned their replys with graphs and explanations.

HSD actually also offer a 3way setup but not of the shelf for the AE86 and I wasn't able to get any answers if it would be possible, despite contacting a few distributors.

[NoHachi]

To clarify:
There is a distinction between BC-racing, the distributor and Bor Chan, the Taiwanese shock conglomerate producing 90% of all the JDM "tuner" shocks/shock parts. When I say BC, I mean the lot: Megan, DG5, BCracing,Stance, etc etc. They share tons of internals. So there is info in researching dyno curves found for any of them.

Making the decision to go for 3 way should be based on:
* The adjusters have a useable range of control.
* The adjusters range of control that is centered around a decent starting point for a given car
* The adjuster is linear within a reasonable range
* Adjuster range and setting is the same across all shocks on an axle.
* Particular adjuster settings should always correspond to the same result.

If you can't guarantee those factors, then you are better of with a decent single or non adjustable shock.

AST/Aragosta low speed adjusters are supposedly very narrow ranged.
Moton not much better (now similar to AST)
Penske-> only most expensive external canister usefull.
Ohlins: TTX dual tube setup quite good.

In my experience: if you don't own your own shock dyno you are going to have a hell of time dialling the car in. I spent 50 Euros after each adjustment to have my shocks mapped out across all settings (lucky to have a tiny and cheap motorcycle shock shop nearby).

Part of the problem is that the adjusters do not explicitly adjust low speed/high speed/bump/rebound separately. You are usually adjusting shim stack preload, bleed orifice diameters and sometimes the max travel of a poppet valve. All these things influence a damper curve, but they do so with a lot of interaction.

My advice (not worth that much mind you) and feeling would be that you are focussing too much on what might be the wrong factors to decide on a shock.
* Getting a good starting curve is essential, you will never adjust a shock with poor starting curves to an ideal position through adjusters.
* Then comes quality the valving/construction/stroke/piston size/type. Things like having reliable accurate double digressive pistons, that are 100% identical between shocks. Ideally you want to see a potato plot of the shock to see how much hysteresis there is.
* After that I would start looking at adjusters. Normally you shouldn't need much. A bleed adjuster that adjusts low speed bump/rebound together is often enough. Or just rebound if a rebound biased valving feel is your preference.

---

With all that said, would love for you to buy the stances and have a shop do some full range dyno's.

[Bean]

I appreciate your input. I haven't pulled the trigger yet - but hopefully will at the end of the month.

From all the research I've done so far (mind you finding good info is difficult) - the starting curve point seemed to be the biggest problem.
Basically there's quite a lot of options out there regarding suspension for our cars, the problem is many are extremly similar and mainly aimed at smooth track use only.

I don't particularly need 3 way adjustability but if it allows me to set it up the way I want better I won't skimp.

Let's try another approach; what I want:

• independent height adjustment, i.e. not through spring preload
• monotube design up front
• enough adjustability to suit rough streets (i.e. mountain pass) and smooth track; if possible even allow for different spring rates (4/5-6kg front, 3-4.5kg rear)
  

I don't really want to go beyond 6/4.5 as harder mostly suits smooth surfaces which rarely are available to me and if they are I could still fit harder swaybars. This is a fun car but I don't see the point being cheap about it. My budget for the suspension is ~2000euros (~$3000) if it's worth it.
I even thought about getting 2 cheaper sets (one for each end of the scale) and switch accordingly but it's a bit of a hassle to be honest.

Open for inputs.

PS: still waiting for an answer from KW (should arrive shortly).
I contacted Bilstein several times with no success. Deep down I would prefer to go with one of the bigger brands as having them rebuild/revalved is easier. Especially considering I'm moving all over the place regularly, not that sending them in isn't an option but more complicated.

[NoHachi]

Independent height adjustment:
This is just not needed, unless you plan to run a wide range of spring rates. Its a gimmick being sold as an advantage by companies that re-use generic shocks on multiple cars. You will be hard pressed to find any serious race car shock with this particular feature.

What you ought to figure out is what ride height you want to/need to/can run in practice. You don't want to screw around with ride height too much, unless you accept the full alignment every time you fancy a change.
Once you know the max ride height you'll accept, you then need to figure out the stroke you'll need from the suspension. That's a matter of spring rates/tires/arb's, search around here for threads on the subject (short stroking as particular topic).
If you know the stroke, then you know the max shock length that will get you there. Using the max shock length instead of too short shocks allows for lots of droop. Lots of droop == lots of control through wipperman, pflanzgarten, flugplatz and your local mountain roads.
Don't underestimate this, the more stroke a suspension system has to work with, the easier it is to get good chassis control.

Mono-tube design:
Big monotubes can be nice (react fast, dissipate heat easily), but a well matched twin-tube design works really well too. Don't dismiss them to early! The advantage of twin-tube shocks is that part of the valving is placed in the footvalve, instead of competing for piston real estate. The adjusters can be 100% separate and usually they have a much wider range of useful adjustment. If you want adjusters, twin tubes are a MUCH better bet. Just get dyno sheets to be able to match them.
As an example: GAZ do a twintube shock that just about covers all MX5 from stock rates (2-3kg/mm) to 13kg/mm cup cars. The available range is that big.

If you are interested in this path, Koni do the 8611 series compression and rebound adjustable shock that will fit inside a AE86 housing if you ream the housing slightly or strip the housing of its paint. Then you have GAZ, HTS etc which you already know (how do you feel about the HTS setup?)

Adjust-ability to suit normal sane use:
Most shocks will cover this just fine, but don't overestimate their effect. A shock valved decently for its spring should not need different settings for street or track.

If you want to have a chameleon like daily dual purpose cars, the most important factors are not springs/shocks.
Tires have a HUGE effect on initial bump absorption and road clearance. If you have space to run a higher sidewall tire for daily duty, ride quality is much improved with a small performance penalty.
The next big thing are bushings. I changed from linear valved bilsteins and rubber bushings to very sweet double digressive monotubes and poly bushings. Ride quality was worse, despite better shocks. Particularly over short sharp bumps. In those circumstances its the rubber parts reacting quickest, long before a shock builds enough pressure to even start thinking about blowing off.
Earlier I nearly tripled my spring rates from stock and ride comfort improved. If they help keep the stroke of the suspension away from the bumpstops, then ride will improve.
Lower spring rates always need more stroke. Need to remember that.

Big monotubes are better then smaller ones for this..and I mean bigger then what will fit inside an AE86 strut.

I know that this is a ton of stuff to process, but its just an amalgam of things I've picked up along the way. I would now be more then happy to run simply a well adjusted digressive bilstein sport shock, without any adjusters at all at a ride height that won't get me any Speedhunters coverage. You live, you learn.

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Having said that, the dyno curves for the single adjustable Stance valved shocks don't look to shabby. If that's what you get, its certainly in the ballpark. Bugger that there is so little info about them.
If using them with lower springrates I would want to make sure that they have enough stroke available. An AE86 ideally needs about 100mm's to work well, 110mm would be better. Shouldn't be a problem I think.
Doesn't seem like the triples add much over the singles.

[Bean]

(05-01-2014 03:42 PM)NoHachi Wrote:  Doesn't seem like the triples add much over the singles.

Quote:Our Pro Comp 3 will also have more range on the compression as well, on the average close to double, compared to our single adjustable

That's what Stance told me. The single adjustable damper is just an example that has similar spring rates. They would valve it as good as possible to my desire and supply it with an actual dyno (mind you at that point I would already be fully commited).

I guess I still have a lot of thinking in front of me...