Bluetop Engine Rebuild multiple question Goal 150-160hp

[Hanzo]

Hello,

i recently bought a 83 Levin with Bluetop Engine (4AGE) which i want to rebuild. My goal is to get around 150hp. And maybe ITBs in the future (mostly for the sound:loveit
As i learned from my previous mistakes it's better to research first before buying anything.

I found out that there are at least 2 Bluetop Bigport versions with different pistons/compressions. Newer modells also have a smallport engine without TVIS.

9.4 : 1
10,3:1 (newer models)
10,0:1 (european modell)

Because i have an EURO Modell my engine has most likely a 10:1 compression. And Toyota can't deliver these pistons anymore.

There also different crankshafts and connection rods. The Bluetop has 40mm crankshaft and18mm connection rods.

I also found 2 really good youtube channels with a lot of 4-AGE Content.
driving 4 answers
Garage 4AGE


My questions are
1. Are the above stats correct?
2. It seems that i can reach my power goals with the bluetop engine.
Or it wise to change to smallport?
3. I also want to change oil pump, water pump etc. I read that the 20V oilpump fits on any 4 AGE. Did anybody installed a 20V oil pump?
4. I also read on the garage 4AGE channel that there are different bigport head versions. Is that true?
5. Can anyone recommend a piston sets?
6. What is the max compression for a standard ECU? I read that 10,7-10,8:1 is possible with the standard ECU.
7. Do i need aftermarket ECU for ITBs?

Thank you all in Advance.

[Ivan141]

You can still get 10:1 pistons through amayama.com (I think), got mine there years ago.
150 is attainable with some cams, smallport don't make huge gains over bigport.

ITB's are a no go on standard ECU without extensive modification, only ever met 1 guy who knew how to do that.

There are no different versions of the bigport head, they are all the same where it counts. It's just appearance and mounting points where there are differences.

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[Hanzo]

(04-10-2021 08:44 PM)Ivan141 Wrote:  You can still get 10:1 pistons through amayama.com (I think), got mine there years ago.
150 is attainable with some cams, smallport don't make huge gains over bigport.

ITB's are a no go on standard ECU without extensive modification, only ever met 1 guy who knew how to do that.

There are no different versions of the bigport head, they are all the same where it counts. It's just appearance and mounting points where there are differences.

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Thx for the website they still have a few interesting parts, sadly the pistons are not available anymore on amayama.

And it's good to hear that 150hp are quite easy to obtain.

I read from this 1 guy.^^ He was really skilled but at this point it's easier to change the ECU which also has more advantages.

In regards to the bigport. Ok so there are different versions but no major differences.

[Ivan141]

Didn't say easy, but it's realistic enough.
Expect you'll need a decent exhaust and manifold along with cams, injectors, mild headwork.
If you want to know what works lookup garage 4age on YouTube, very educational.



Quick Edit: Just learned that early and late bigport castings ARE different. (on garage 4age's channel off course).

[Hanzo]

(04-10-2021 10:09 PM)Ivan141 Wrote:  Didn't say easy, but it's realistic enough.
Expect you'll need a decent exhaust and manifold along with cams, injectors, mild headwork.
If you want to know what works lookup garage 4age on YouTube, very educational.

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That channel is a treasure for 4AGE fans.


And perfect timing garage 4AGE made a video the old bluetop head is better. Very nice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX4CAVEsdVA

[oldeskewltoy]

Be careful in your assumptions..... they test one of each heads... that is by no means definitive proof.... additionally it would have been nice to see 3 runs for each and then an average.

I've now had at least 15 4AG heads on my flowbench, and 16V heads pretty much flow similar numbers.... with that said, early (largeport) castings tend to be a bit better cast then later heads - this is true for smallports as well. Finally, a properly ported head will easily outflow either early, or later TVIS castings.

Some care should be used when discussing power ratings - engine power means very little in the real world, wheel horsepower is a far better tell. Wheel hp measured 1:1 (many 4th gears, but not all are 1:1)

Can you get to 150whp with a 4AGE, the answer is no problem, although the largeport intake manifold does become a challenge around 145-150whp. I'm making 145whp in my smallport* using Euro 10:1 pistons - but the head has been extensively worked - chambers now down to about 33cc, so compression is closer to 10.7:1 (* - smallport head and block, with a 40mm crank, rods, and 10:1 pistons) I'm using a mild cam Web camshafts 577 grind - equivalent to a 264 type, using 8.38mm lift. I've kept the smallport intake manifold (single T/B)

I've built a number of other 4AG heads, and engines as well - https://gallery.ostportworks.com/index.php



So....

My questions are
1. Are the above stats correct? Pretty much
2. It seems that i can reach my power goals with the bluetop engine
Or it wise to change to smallport? - if retaining stock manifold easier with a smallport - properly set ITBs will flow what is needed for either head
3. I also want to change oil pump, water pump etc. I read that the 20V oilpump fits on any 4 AGE. Did anybody installed a 20V oil pump?Silvertop pump, and smallport 16V use the same pumps(19036) - don't use Blacktop, different timing tensioner
4. I also read on the garage 4AGE channel that there are different bigport head versions. Is that true? essentially no, although it is easier to find a "nice" early casting
5. Can anyone recommend a piston sets? Get a set of pistons made - flaw in all stock 16V pistons - poor 2nd ring land support
6. What is the max compression for a standard ECU? I read that 10,7-10,8:1 is possible with the standard ECU. stock ECU can handle 10.7:1 - with a worked head - bigger problems tend to come from big cams and a stock ECU
7. Do i need aftermarket ECU for ITBs? Pretty much

[Hanzo]

Hello Dan,

thank you for your detailed reply.

(04-11-2021 05:28 AM)oldeskewltoy Wrote:  Be careful in your assumptions..... they test one of each heads... that is by no means definitive proof.... additionally it would have been nice to see 3 runs for each and then an average.

3 runs would be even better. This channel is a good indicator which mods are actually working.

Quote:Some care should be used when discussing power ratings - engine power means very little in the real world, wheel horsepower is a far better tell. Wheel hp measured 1:1 (many 4th gears, but not all are 1:1)

Can you get to 150whp with a 4AGE, the answer is no problem, although the largeport intake manifold does become a challenge around 145-150whp. I'm making 145whp in my smallport* using Euro 10:1 pistons - but the head has been extensively worked - chambers now down to about 33cc, so compression is closer to 10.7:1 (* - smallport head and block, with a 40mm crank, rods, and 10:1 pistons) I'm using a mild cam Web camshafts 577 grind - equivalent to a 264 type, using 8.38mm lift. I've kept the smallport intake manifold (single T/B)

Thanks for clearifing that, i meant 150-160hp at the crank.
Which is more like 120-130whp. 150 whp would be fantastic, but i think this will lead to lot more upgrades down the road (like brakes, cooling etc.) I already have a "fast" car so the Levin doesn't need to fulfil that role.^^

Quote:I've built a number of other 4AG heads, and engines as well - https://gallery.ostportworks.com/index.php

My mechanic liked your work. Can you send me price list per PM?

So....

My questions are

Quote:3. I also want to change oil pump, water pump etc. I read that the 20V oilpump fits on any 4 AGE. Did anybody installed a 20V oil pump?Silvertop pump, and smallport 16V use the same pumps(19036) - don't use Blacktop, different timing tensioner

And that's excatly why you can't trust random websites^^. Good to know.

Quote:5. Can anyone recommend a piston sets? Get a set of pistons made - flaw in all stock 16V pistons - poor 2nd ring land support

Very good tip

[/quote]

[Ivan141]

Have some cracked euro bigport pistons from my first 4AGE, can confirm. Will be sticking identical new ones in though.

[oldeskewltoy]

(04-11-2021 08:11 PM)Hanzo Wrote:  

(04-11-2021 05:28 AM)oldeskewltoy Wrote:  Can you get to 150whp with a 4AGE, the answer is no problem, although the largeport intake manifold does become a challenge around 145-150whp. I'm making 145whp in my smallport* using Euro 10:1 pistons - but the head has been extensively worked - chambers now down to about 33cc, so compression is closer to 10.7:1 (* - smallport head and block, with a 40mm crank, rods, and 10:1 pistons) I'm using a mild cam Web camshafts 577 grind - equivalent to a 264 type, using 8.38mm lift. I've kept the smallport intake manifold (single T/B)

Thanks for clearifing that, i meant 150-160hp at the crank.
Which is more like 120-130whp. 150 whp would be fantastic, but i think this will lead to lot more upgrades down the road (like brakes, cooling etc.) I already have a "fast" car so the Levin doesn't need to fulfil that role.^^

For 120whp all you really need is a properly ported head, and about 10.5:1 compression. This is a largeport using smallport pistons, and a ported head. As far as manifolds - I kept the stock bigport intake, exhaust manifolds, and it retained stock engine management.


Video of pull here


The extra 10hp can come from a mild cam(256 type) upgrade.

[Project D]

(04-10-2021 07:31 PM)Hanzo Wrote:  [...]My goal is to get around 150hp. And maybe ITBs in the future (mostly for the sound )
[...]
My questions are
1. Are the above stats correct?
2. It seems that i can reach my power goals with the bluetop engine.
Or it wise to change to smallport?
3. I also want to change oil pump, water pump etc. I read that the 20V oilpump fits on any 4 AGE. Did anybody installed a 20V oil pump?
4. I also read on the garage 4AGE channel that there are different bigport head versions. Is that true?
5. Can anyone recommend a piston sets?
6. What is the max compression for a standard ECU? I read that 10,7-10,8:1 is possible with the standard ECU.
7. Do i need aftermarket ECU for ITBs?

1: Yes. 9.4:1 for bluetop worldwide except EU model (10:1), 10.3:1 are from a different bottom end (42/20mm instead of 40/18mm)
2: You can reach 150hp with your current engine, no issues.
One of my friends have 148hp with just a set of 264/256° HKS cams, 0.8mm head gasket and 0.5mm surfaced cylinder head. Nothing fancy, ZERO porting. (full martelius exhaust, stock intake and engine management)
3: Oil pump: 15100-19036 (latest 16v, 20v silvertop), Water pump: 16110-16010
4: If your car is from 83, you most likely have an early (nice) casting. So you don't have to worry about that.
5: 10:1 spec pistons 13101-16030-02 (don't forget the "-02") are still listed as available on Amayama
6: ECU don't care about the compression ratio of your engine. They are not AI, just electronic automaton who are made to run a set of parameters.
Once you start significantly modifying your engine, you get out of those parameters. So I would definitely recommend going for an aftermarket ECU. I would also replace the injectors.
7: YES ! Some peoples may claim running with ITB on the stock ECU, but there is a big difference between making an engine run and make it run PROPERLY !

(04-11-2021 05:28 AM)oldeskewltoy Wrote:  Some care should be used when discussing power ratings - engine power means very little in the real world, wheel horsepower is a far better tell. Wheel hp measured 1:1 (many 4th gears, but not all are 1:1)

While I agree that power at the wheel is a better tool to compare car to car performance, it's a BAD idea to refer to WHP when we are talking engine tuning. Transmission loss can be massively different between car to car.
If you are lucky you may be able to get 150whp with as little as 160hp, or as much as 190hp...