Can't fire up. Buzzing from the relay, lamps blinkin- HELP

[mrgud]

Red Wrote:The schematic will be *necessary* to pin that one down. The EFI fuse goes to the EFI main relay but a failure downstream of that in all sorts of places could put voltage on that line. Fuel pump circuits, computer (if it was attached while the quarter was cut out, it might be damaged), fuel pump test connector or check engine connector if they were shorted out...it hurts to look at. Some time with an LED test light or multimeter is going to be the way to find out where that 10v is coming from.

As Ivan said, we measured between one pin and ground. One of the pins of the fuse had 12 and the other had 10V. In normal conditions one pin and ground should be 12V and the other pin and ground should be 0V. (that should clear my week explenation...)

Now, what do you mean by "downstream"? I don't dig electric circuts that well I have to check again...
What is the "direction" of the wireing? Batery, contact key lock, fuse, relay, ECU, dome check engine lamp... don't have the clue where further, probably the batery to close the circut... )


Today is the day, I am going for it... going to fire every single idea that I have...
Check the wire to and from the EFI fuse
Test the fuel pump (don't know how, but I'll try to find the power wires of it in the trunk and yust put 12V on it... ih it buzzes it works... I'll try to find something about it in the manual first... )
Don't know... I am a bit mad and tired... I hate when things don't tur out as they are suposed to especialy after 4 days in a row, fireing every single idea in my head and going around the car as a cat around the hot porrige... You suspect of something, all happy, go for it, do it, and it is not that... moral crash... Oh well that's life...

I did a quick analasys...
Takumi blew his engine
Zax blew his one time...

Maybe this happens only to the true hachi masters (or plain dumbasses as my self )

[Red]

"Now, what do you mean by "downstream"?"
DOwnstream, meaning anything that is further "down the river", i.e. further down the path of the flowing electricity, from the source (the battery) past the device, all the way to the ground/return connections.

"What is the "direction" of the wireing? " Traditionally, power from a battery is supposed to "flow" from the positive to the ground, thus the "downstream" metaphor. Which apparently didn't translate very smoothly, sorry. (According to modern physics, the electrons don't flow at all and the real flow is exactly the opposite but that's not going to help fix the car.<G&gt


"Check the wire to and from the EFI fuse"
If you got 12V on the supply side (terminal marked "3" I believe is the supply common to all the fuses in that fuse box) that's normal.

"Test the fuel pump (don't know how, but I'll try to find the power wires of it in the trunk and yust put 12V on it... ih it buzzes it works... I'll try to find something about it in the manual first... ) "
Next to the check engine connector (at least in the AE8x) is a fuel pump test connector, if you jump it, it supplies power to the fuel pump. Otherwise there are more controls that can get in the way. THe manual should give you the diagnostics for it.


"Don't know... I am a bit mad and tired"
That's not uncommon with electrical problems in cars. Garages don't get upset, they just replace whole systems until something gets fixed and then they try to tell you "That's the only way" so you have to pay for it all, needed or not. When I get the feeling that I've looked at everything and there's still no reason it doesn't work...I know it means I am tired and not seeing the real problem, I need to step back, take a break, and come back with fresh eyes. And recheck everything, even the very obvious things. Usually it is something very small, very obvious in hindsight, and I slap my head and go "Duh!" when I find it.<G>

[mrgud]

Red Wrote:"Test the fuel pump (don't know how, but I'll try to find the power wires of it in the trunk and yust put 12V on it... ih it buzzes it works... I'll try to find something about it in the manual first... ) "
Next to the check engine connector (at least in the AE8x) is a fuel pump test connector, if you jump it, it supplies power to the fuel pump. Otherwise there are more controls that can get in the way. THe manual should give you the diagnostics for it.

thanx...
ok, here's the thing... I have the kuoki manuals. Kuoki had the check engine conector similar to the Celica (some 8-10 pins marked E1, T and so)... My AE68 is a Zenki. So my check engine conector is the yelow one near the thermostat (some have it by the firewall...). I don't know how to jump it (hot wire it), and didn't find an explenation for it on the web (to be honest, didn't put much energy in it... ). But even if I jump it, it will not say anything because to read the codes the engine has to run for some time. My batery hasn't been conected for... fuf... some 4 weeks now... So probably there aren't any codes...

1. Could you say how to jump the check engine conector?
2. Can you explain how to jump the pump? Is it the 2 pin conector nex to the check engine conector, right now I am searching the pump check directions in the manuals... I'll get somewhere I guess...

Thank you!

PS
I printed out the pages from 87th on...
fingers crossed....

[Ivan141]

Ehm...I have never heard of a check engine connector next to the thermostat.. are you really sure about that one?
It will also throw codes if the engine hasnt run for a while, dont worry about that. You should know you've got the right connector when the check engine light starts blinking, if it doesnt light up at all, you cant check for codes..
The fuelpump is easy to check..it will start running when you turn the starter engine on. Just loosen the fuelline to the injectorrail to see if it's pumping.

[Red]

"1. Could you say how to jump the check engine conector? "
All you do is place a wire or paper clip in the two sockets to short them out. With the air conditioning switches off, car in neutral, key turned to the "run" position, the check engine light blinks any error codes.

"2. Can you explain how to jump the pump? Is it the 2 pin conector nex to the check engine conector, " I haven't needed to check the pump but I think the procedure is the same, short the pins and the pump is supposed to get power and run. There is a circuit opening relay in between, I'm not sure if this is supposed to engage the relay or bypass it, you'd need to check the manual to be sure.

Of course checking the fuel pump won't answer your first question, which is why you are seeing 10v on the downstream side of the EFI main fuse socket. I don't think you should be seeing any power on that side of the socket when the fuse has been removed.

[Red]

Ivan?
"It will also throw codes if the engine hasnt run for a while, dont worry about that."
He said he's had the battery disconnected for a long time. Once you remove power from the ECU for a couple of minutes, the codes stored in memory all go away. In fact, that's how you clear the codes form the computer, you pull a fuse for a couple of minutes.
I don't remember the exact time needed..I think less than two minutes if you pull the right fuse, or the battery.

"The fuelpump is easy to check..it will start running when you turn the starter engine on. " That's only true IF the fuel pump relay and other things are working properly. And then you need one person to go around back and listen while the other one turns the key.<G> Much simpler to use the check connection and make it a 1-man job. Also much less chance of overheating the starter, which should not be run more than 15 seconds every 15 minutes or so. More than that and they overheat.

[mrgud]

the time for erasing codes is, if I remember correctly (deppending of the temperature), about 5-10min...
That is irrelevant here...

My fuel pump was buzzing before only AFTER cranking... for some 2-5 sec... Not before (wich is kinda odd, but if your fuel pressure regulator is ok it should have fuel pressure all the time, no need to fire it up if there is fuel in the rail... During crancking yes, but there is a slim chance to hear that...

I'll try to jump wire it by the manuals... just printed 160 pages of manuals...

[Ivan141]

ehm..first @ red:
I must say I wouldnt know how long the car I based my remark on had been battery-less..but I had to take out the whole engine loom for repairs at the time so I guess the ECU should have been erased.
But...after a bit of cranking it most certainly threw some codes. Turned out to be some wrongly plugged in connectors..but to me it proves that the ECU did diagnosis without the engine running

You cant know if the fuelpump works by checking the voltage at it's terminals. I cant even hear my fuelpump working, so thats no good either.
If it wont work while cranking.. then you have bigger things to worry about then the fuelpump.
What I was suggesting is loosening the fuelline and giving it a short blip of the starter, if the fuelpump is good it will squirt out some fuel.

[Red]

Ivan-
"but to me it proves that the ECU did diagnosis without the engine running " I never said the ECU couldn't get engine codes with the engine not running. Part of the reason for engine codes is to tell you why an engine might not BE running. Plugging in wrong connectors is more problematic, that can fry things, probably including the ECU.

Personally I've never me a "silent" fuel pump, I can always hear or feel it running unless there is a lot of background noise or I'm in a very upscale car. But then again, I have the ears of a bat. True, you can't be sure you are getting fuel pressure just from the buzz of a motor.

I don't like cracking open fuel lines unless they must be opened. Sometimes, the fittings fail. Sometimes the fuel catches fire. Not often but once is enough to ruin your day <G> so I prefer not to open fuel lines.

From the voltage he is showing at the EFI main fuse, which should not be there, and the relay buzzing, there is no reason to suspect a fuel pump failure until after the other electrical questions have been addressed.

Running power directly to the pump and watching to see fuel actually get pumped, is a good idea, but at this point I would call it a distraction unless there was some reason to think it had not been working in the past. Which wasn't mentioned here.

[Ivan141]

I agree, the fuelpump is not the problem..but I've had to resort to the fuelline-loosening on 2 cars already. Fastest way of telling if the pump works.
The connectors I switched where from the sensors on the back of the head..nothing got fried though.