Help me AEU86, you're my only hope

[jondee86]

If you have the car idling in the optimal range and you pull the hose off the MAP sensor
the gauge should move until it is showing rich. That's about all you need to do to check
if the MAP sensor is working.

Cheers... jondee86

[totta Crolla]

Probably worth checking that your O2 sensor is telling you the truth. It should be showing somewhere between 0 - 1v on your meter. To give a stable output an un-heated sensor relies on high exhaust temperatures and this is typically achieved when the engine is under load. I use a narrowband sensor to feed back to my ecu and a wideband to tune. With both sensors fitted it became obvious that the un-heated narrowband sensor was sending rubbish until it got really hot. Fitting a heated sensor cured this.

[Nakilad]

(03-22-2021 02:25 AM)jondee86 Wrote:  If you have the car idling in the optimal range and you pull the hose off the MAP sensor
the gauge should move until it is showing rich. That's about all you need to do to check
if the MAP sensor is working.

Cheers... jondee86

I tried this, and all it really does is idle like a sack of s**t. nothing really changes on the gauge. You can see / hear this in the 4th video of the playlist.

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(03-22-2021 10:16 AM)totta Crolla Wrote:  Probably worth checking that your O2 sensor is telling you the truth. It should be showing somewhere between 0 - 1v on your meter. To give a stable output an un-heated sensor relies on high exhaust temperatures and this is typically achieved when the engine is under load. I use a narrowband sensor to feed back to my ecu and a wideband to tune. With both sensors fitted it became obvious that the un-heated narrowband sensor was sending rubbish until it got really hot. Fitting a heated sensor cured this.

So the voltage is normally at .14 volts. Changing the mixture screw has no effect, but you can hear the change in the idle so it is doing something. If I block off the cam breather hose for 30-45 seconds, and then release it, the voltage will shoot up to around .45 (max) and the slowly settle back down to 0.14 again.

I understand what you are getting at here regarding the heat, and it does make sense. I don't think this is the issue but I guess I need to spend another 200-300€ on a wide band sensor and gauge to test this further. As I said earlier, I can't really take it for a long drive without running the risk of getting into a lot of trouble! That said, there is an auto bahn around 3 minutes away so perhaps I should just chance it one evening.

[totta Crolla]

I don't think it is necessary to sink money into a wideband system, all you really need is a narrowband sensor with a heater circuit. The heater circuit will work on a 12v feed. You can check the real output of your current sensor on a road test. Most non-heated sensor fed ecu's run in open loop at idle because the sensor output cannot be relied upon.

[Nakilad]

(03-24-2021 01:06 AM)totta Crolla Wrote:  I don't think it is necessary to sink money into a wideband system, all you really need is a narrowband sensor with a heater circuit. The heater circuit will work on a 12v feed. You can check the real output of your current sensor on a road test. Most non-heated sensor fed ecu's run in open loop at idle because the sensor output cannot be relied upon.

Ok, good idea, i'll look for that first.

The sensor I am using is a Delphi ES10226-12B1 (Lambdasensor). Is it possible that the output of this sensor does not match the input required for the Prosport Racing Premium Serie gauge I have?

[totta Crolla]

"The sensor I am using is a Delphi ES10226-12B1 (Lambdasensor). Is it possible that the output of this sensor does not match the input required for the Prosport Racing Premium Serie gauge I have?"

Apart from a few car manufacturer specifics narrowband sensor outputs are pretty much generic, the changes are in the wiring and the plug connections. The wiring differences are related to the heater circuit (4 wire sensor normally) By all means check with the gauge manufacturer, all you need to know is the input voltage range required. lf it is 0-1v and it almost certainly will be, you are good to go. I am still using a sensor l got from a scrapped car!

[jondee86]

(03-24-2021 01:06 AM)totta Crolla Wrote:  I don't think it is necessary to sink money into a wideband system...

With all due respect, I would suggest that a WBO2 gauge and sensor
would be a good investment both for tuning and trouble shooting.

A narrow band sensor is fine for a stock engine with an OEM ECU that is set
up to work with a narrow band sensor. The "switch-like" output of the sensor
hovers around 0.5V. When it is above 0.5 the ECU reduces fuel and when it
is below 0.5 the ECU adds fuel. The sensor reacts to the change in fueling
so that the up-down-up-down cycle repeats over and over. I believe this
can happen several times a second.

The problem with the narrow band sensor is that it can not tell you HOW
rich or HOW lean the mixture is. Enter the wide band sensor that has a more
gradual change in output so that it can be scaled to read from very rich to
very lean. When used in conjunction with a compatible WBO2 controller and
gauge, you can see on the gauge if you are at 17:1 or 12:1 and how the
reading changes with load and rpm.

Most WBO2 controllers can output a simulated narrow band signal for feeding
to a factory ECU designed to work with a narrow band input. But your gauge
will be telling you the actual AFR under all operating conditions. Down the
track if you upgrade to an aftermarket ECU the wide band signal can be fed
directly to the ECU for automatic or semi-automatic tuning of the fuel map.

Incidentally, narrow band sensors are installed close to the head for
maximum heating while wide band sensors usually get installed a bit further
downstream in the collector to avoid overheating.

Cheers... jondee86

PS: And while I've got you here, I'd suggest that you forget about trying to
make the narrow band happy and start working on possible mechanical
issues. For example... is the TVIS system working correctly ? If the TVIS
plates stay closed (don't open around 4200rpm) you will have good low rpm
operation but be short of breath at high rpm.

Pulling the hose off the MAP sensor should cause a rough idle... maybe need
you to play with the throttle to keep it running, and blow a bit of black
smoke/smell gasoline in the exhaust.

[totta Crolla]

The reason a NB sensor hovers around a given voltage is because it is feeding its value back to the ecu, the ecu then changes the fueling to keep the given voltage hovering around a given value. When a NB sensor is used just to monitor it is capable of showing rich / lean values in excess of what is required to run a normally aspirated engine. Here is a video proving such: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o6y0OgSnbhk The DTM unit is monitoring using a generic NB sensor. The Innovate LM2 uses a wideband sensor.
lf the problem appears to be that the engine is running lean and that conclusion comes from an instrument reading then surely that instrument reading needs to be correct?

[jondee86]

Interesting !! I have seen narrow band gauges that light LED's to show the
voltage, but never one that was actually calibrated to specific lambda
values. So that is my new thing for today learned already Claims about
reaction speed and legibility are not really helpful. It is difficult to get much
information from a gauge that rapidly changing values to track volatile
events such as combustion cycles.

I used an old Innovate LC-1 wide band digital gauge and it had three
settings to slow the gauge down by averaging the displayed readings over
(from memory) the last 3, 6 or 12 samples. This cut down jitter on my log
files so that I got more realistic "steady state" readings for tuning my fuel
map. But I was still able to see what was happening during transitions for
adjusting enrichments.

The LC-1 controlled the sensor heating and would not allow AFR readings
to display until the sensor was at operating temperature. It also had a
simulated narrow band output that I used with a factory ECU before I
installed a new aftermarket ECU. Then I connected the wide band date
output directly to the ECU for maximum accuracy.

For an inexpensive gauge and controller package I thought the LC-1
worked very well. However, that is just me and I don't suggest that it is
the best or only way to monitor AFR's. You and others may find the
combination of wide and narrow band gauges helpful and I have no
argument with that. But for the OP trying to troubleshoot with a narrow
band that may or may not be wired or operating correctly, I stand by my
recommendation. A basic wide band gauge and controller setup, once
correctly installed and calibrated in fresh air is going to immediately provide
useful information.

Cheers... jondee86

[Nakilad]

(03-25-2021 09:11 AM)jondee86 Wrote:  

(03-24-2021 01:06 AM)totta Crolla Wrote:  I don't think it is necessary to sink money into a wideband system...

With all due respect, I would suggest that a WBO2 gauge and sensor
would be a good investment both for tuning and trouble shooting.

A narrow band sensor is fine for a stock engine with an OEM ECU that is set
up to work with a narrow band sensor. The "switch-like" output of the sensor
hovers around 0.5V. When it is above 0.5 the ECU reduces fuel and when it
is below 0.5 the ECU adds fuel. The sensor reacts to the change in fueling
so that the up-down-up-down cycle repeats over and over. I believe this
can happen several times a second.

The problem with the narrow band sensor is that it can not tell you HOW
rich or HOW lean the mixture is. Enter the wide band sensor that has a more
gradual change in output so that it can be scaled to read from very rich to
very lean. When used in conjunction with a compatible WBO2 controller and
gauge, you can see on the gauge if you are at 17:1 or 12:1 and how the
reading changes with load and rpm.

Most WBO2 controllers can output a simulated narrow band signal for feeding
to a factory ECU designed to work with a narrow band input. But your gauge
will be telling you the actual AFR under all operating conditions. Down the
track if you upgrade to an aftermarket ECU the wide band signal can be fed
directly to the ECU for automatic or semi-automatic tuning of the fuel map.

Incidentally, narrow band sensors are installed close to the head for
maximum heating while wide band sensors usually get installed a bit further
downstream in the collector to avoid overheating.

Cheers... jondee86

PS: And while I've got you here, I'd suggest that you forget about trying to
make the narrow band happy and start working on possible mechanical
issues. For example... is the TVIS system working correctly ? If the TVIS
plates stay closed (don't open around 4200rpm) you will have good low rpm
operation but be short of breath at high rpm.

Pulling the hose off the MAP sensor should cause a rough idle... maybe need
you to play with the throttle to keep it running, and blow a bit of black
smoke/smell gasoline in the exhaust.

I'll try to cover a few of these points. Its an early model map sensor so there's no feedback from the 02 sensor to the ecu. No modifications have been made to the motor (aside from a rebuild) and its the stock ECU.

At the moment all I get out of the NB Sensor at idle is 0.14 volts, clearly to low. The sensor is mounted in the exhaust manifold (I think you can see this in one of the videos). I've got a heated NB sensor on the way (4 wire, so I know it will have a good earth), it should be here tomorrow or Saturday so i'll plug that in and see what happens. I guess if that also doesn't show anything then WB might be the next step!

I have two tvis's, been swapped over a few times, seems to make little / no difference. I can say that they are definitely closed at idle (which is the thing I have to work out first before worrying about whats going on above 4500 rpm).

I'm not going to take any offence from any suggestions!

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(03-24-2021 10:27 AM)totta Crolla Wrote:  "The sensor I am using is a Delphi ES10226-12B1 (Lambdasensor). Is it possible that the output of this sensor does not match the input required for the Prosport Racing Premium Serie gauge I have?"

Apart from a few car manufacturer specifics narrowband sensor outputs are pretty much generic, the changes are in the wiring and the plug connections. The wiring differences are related to the heater circuit (4 wire sensor normally) By all means check with the gauge manufacturer, all you need to know is the input voltage range required. lf it is 0-1v and it almost certainly will be, you are good to go. I am still using a sensor l got from a scrapped car!

Yeah, I thought that would be the case. Its a standard prosport gauge to it ranges from 0 to 1 volts as input.