ITB talk

[Ivan141]

BTW, there is a dutch guy that knows how to change the stock ECU to work with ITB's with maps loaded from external ROM. Might be interesting to see if I could get him to come to the forum. He also changes the ECU to run on the TPS sensor signal so the engine behaves properly at idle.
I believe he works for some german BMW tuner these days..

[alimonos]

Ivan what u say is that we have to change ECU if we want to use these ITBs? Aren't these a bolt on upgrade?

[@dodo@]

2 alimonos: from club4ag.com

* Individual Throttle Body - 20V 4-throttle on 16V 4A-GE

Another popular topic these days is adapting the individual throttles from the 20V onto the 16V..."Can this be done?" You bet! But there are many obstacles which may hinder your attempt and here's some of them. NO! you will not be able to use the 16V ECU to run the throttle as fuel map requirements are vastly different for the 20'v throttle unit. The lower rpm ranges require much less fuel while in the upper ranges the throttle needs significantly more fuel. Since the whole idea of making precise fuel maps are the key to making the difficult and sensitive 4 throttle to work well, it is not a matter of backyard tuning by simply shifting AFM or Vacuum Sensor signals or shuffling fuel pressures. You must almost always use an aftermarket or re-computed ECU get anywhere near the operation you need...even to match the original spec of the single throttle you tossed in the garbage. Second, since the 20V's idle is controlled not by the TPS and the throttle body, but rather a secondary port called ISCV which leaks idle air in a controlled manner aft of the fully closed throttles. Since the 16V engines never had this, you have to figure out a way to devise a similar tactics through your own ingenious method. The throttle in any case must be fully closed to get idle mixture control on. The manifold will not bolt on to the 16V's intake so an adapter should be used or fabricated. Overall, not many of the private shops have successfully made such setups perform better than what can easily be done with the single throttle, even though almost all of them have succeeded in getting a car to run decently. That said, there are a handful of shops that did make things work wonderfully (all in Japan that I have seen) with the 20V throttle mechanism and kits are available. Be cautioned that they are NOT cheap and greatly exceeds the cost of swapping the entire 20V instead, because it will require a fully programmable ECU and their research results in the form of software. For many of us, a set of side draft carburetor will be a more effective and much cheaper option than grafting the individual throttles on the 16V

[alimonos]

Thanks a lot Dodo

[Ivan141]

The guy I was talking about is Ron Hellenbrand (not the dealer with the expensive hachi's, but related I think)..he posts on club4ag very rarely, and when he does, a lot of people seem to listen. I'm pretty sure he still has a hachi with a 200hp NA engine in it. Anyway, the man has taken the effort to debug the ae86 ecu and make changes to the software so it accepts fueling and ignition data from external memory, as wel as making it run on TPS sensor input. I dont know if he still does this conversion for ae86 guys, but it might be worthwile if the costs stay lower than tuning a standalone ECU to do the job properly.

Mind you it is possible to run the 16v ecu on ITB's but you will need to pull off some tricks to get the fueling in the right direction and buffer the map sensor pressure. Even if you succeed in doing that you will not be using the full potential of the ITB's.

[alimonos]

Ivan said "I'm pretty sure he still has a hachi with a 200hp NA engine in it."
can you give us more details?
Is it possible to ask the guy if he's willing to modify our ECUs to get some serious HP and how much will it cost? :wink:
Thanks man

[mo-racing]

the last thing i heard on the german toyota forum about ron helenbrand was that he made 180hp with ITPs and high compression pistons. all the rest was stock i think.
i really like the idea of reprogramming the stock ecu but at the end it will be better with an haltech or something. you do not need ron helenbrand after every change you want to make then ...

[PetzK]

I've seen his car, its A LOT more work into this engine than that, Ron knows his stuff...

[mo-racing]

really? thats good..... i was getting jelous .... imagine 180hp out of ITP and higher compression..... pffft

[mo-racing]

now i remember more clearly .... he had changed the cams as well!

but there wasnt much more, wasnt it???

IVAN, you should get ron on the forum as well but i think he will not share too much of his knowledge .... its pretty special what he does so i understand that.