Newb question on "how-to" guide for ITBs on JDM 4AG Bluetop w/ MAP

[mister86]

I had a dumb question, but what are the steps/things I would need in order to take my bluetop motor (JDM MAP 16v) and add ITBs on it. I would love to know if I need new injectors, most likely a piggyback ECU (which one that works best for the the JDM motor), should I get a vacuum block, etc

Any help here would be great. A step by step guide, etc.

Also, has anyone heard of the Toda Injection Kit https://www.toda-racing.co.jp/en/product...n/4ag.html

[Project D]

Mechanical:
-ITB (obviously)
-adapter (I would highly recommend SQ)
-velocity stacks ("trumpet")
-vacuum block (you can make it work without it depending on the setup, but it's better with it)
- you may also require a new throttle cable and some brackets depending on the application
- bolts, hoses, etc...

EFI:
-Standalone ECU (forget about piggyback, that's just a BAD idea)
-TPS (16v and 20v TPS are not the same)
-injector and pressure regulator (again, not absolutely necessary. But unless you want to go ITB just for the sound you will need them too)
-connectors

The TODA kit is nice, but expensive and still require a fair bit of things to make it work.
It's also specifically made for RHD.

[mister86]

(02-07-2020 10:03 AM)Project D Wrote:  Mechanical:
-ITB (obviously)
-adapter (I would highly recommend SQ)
-velocity stacks ("trumpet")
-vacuum block (you can make it work without it depending on the setup, but it's better with it)
- you may also require a new throttle cable and some brackets depending on the application
- bolts, hoses, etc...

EFI:
-Standalone ECU (forget about piggyback, that's just a BAD idea)
-TPS (16v and 20v TPS are not the same)
-injector and pressure regulator (again, not absolutely necessary. But unless you want to go ITB just for the sound you will need them too)
-connectors

The TODA kit is nice, but expensive and still require a fair bit of things to make it work.
It's also specifically made for RHD.

The TODA Kit, what all extra things would I need? From my understanding, Greddy eManage Ultimate, the manifold port needs to be enlarged are the only things you need. Is that true? Or are there more things I am missing. I also heard a full stand alone ECU is harder to work with a JDM car because of compatibility? I imported an actual RHD AE86 from Japan which is why I’m asking.

[Project D]

A standalone ECU don't care from where the engine came from.
Again, a piggyback to run an engine that goes from plenum to ITB is a VERY BAD idea !!!
If it was a AFM engine (ECU) and you where to run ITB with the AFM (like the silvertop is from factory) a piggyback could work.
But a single throttle MAP calibration (ECU) is a universe away from what an ITB setup will need.

The TODA setup only include the throttle bodies, the manifold, a fuel rail and plugs for the original fuel injector holes in the cylinder head, the TPS and some connectors + the hardware to bolt it on.
No hoses, no fuel pressure regulator, no injectors (the OEM one are tiny !) no vacuum block, no hoses etc...
And it cost ¥260000 !! (~€2200)
Lets compare it to what's available elsewhere.

TWM: $1333/1490 depending the setup (€~1250/1400)
Also include a fuel rail with pressure regulator and the integrated vacuum block (not included in the TODA kit)

Still require an ECU, a set of injectors and some other bit and pieces to run, but so does the TODA kit.

Jenvey DCOE: €880
http://kgpengineering.com/shop/complete-...-body-kit/
Need a lot of other stuff, but I bet you with the price difference of the TODA kit you could have a running setup.

[The Doctor]

Do you really need all that?

I was under the impression that a MAP ECU could run ITB's without much hassle? Get a set of complete blacktop 20V itb's and an adaptor.
At least, that was the plan i have for my MAP 4A-GE, as the stock engine runs on MAP and TPS and the 20V does the same.

But maybe i'm wrong about this, don't know for sure. Most info out there is on MAF engines, and those are a different game i think?

[Project D]

(02-07-2020 01:37 PM)The Doctor Wrote:  Do you really need all that?

I was under the impression that a MAP ECU could run ITB's without much hassle? Get a set of complete blacktop 20V itb's and an adaptor.

One of my friend tried that, almost blew his engine up...

(02-07-2020 01:37 PM)The Doctor Wrote:  At least, that was the plan i have for my MAP 4A-GE, as the stock engine runs on MAP and TPS and the 20V does the same.

The stock 16v run on MAP alone. TPS is used only for idle (switch) and transient (TPS %/time)
The blacktop use mostly the TPS to run. The MAP sensor act as a correction factor.

(02-07-2020 01:37 PM)The Doctor Wrote:  But maybe i'm wrong about this, don't know for sure. Most info out there is on MAF engines, and those are a different game i think?

No 4A-GE run on MAF (hot wire). Silvertop and some 16v run with an AFM (flap)
MAF and AFM are totally different on both behavior and output.
But they essentially do the same thing, mesure directly the amount of air ingested by the engine.
So they don't care about what's behind them (Single TB or ITB).
But even on AFM, the TPS is used for transient (when you smash the throttle), and a single TB with a plenum act wildly different than ITB in those conditions.

[Ivan141]

Theres only 1 guy that succesfully runs ITB's on an OEM ECU that I've heard of, and I believe he reprogrammed the ECU to trick it into doing something like alpha-N.
So never say never, but at the point where you can make the stock ECU your bitch you could probably make a healthy living off your skillset.

[mister86]

(02-07-2020 05:59 PM)Ivan141 Wrote:  Theres only 1 guy that succesfully runs ITB's on an OEM ECU that I've heard of, and I believe he reprogrammed the ECU to trick it into doing something like alpha-N.
So never say never, but at the point where you can make the stock ECU your bitch you could probably make a healthy living off your skillset.

So if I did do the Toda Kit, and got this ECU, a fuel pressure regulator, some new injectors (which ones?), a vacuum block and hoses, the tune, it’ll work well I think right?

https://shop.battlegarage-rs.com/product...7098958017

[Project D]

(02-07-2020 05:59 PM)Ivan141 Wrote:  Theres only 1 guy that succesfully runs ITB's on an OEM ECU that I've heard of, and I believe he reprogrammed the ECU to trick it into doing something like alpha-N.
So never say never, but at the point where you can make the stock ECU your bitch you could probably make a healthy living off your skillset.

You can't reprogram the stock ECU, you have to remove the PROM and replace it with an EPROM or a daughter card and THEN program it to behave like you want.
But first you need to read the old memory and then reverse engineer the whole thing.
So like you said, at the point you are able to do that...

A MS clone like EFIgnition 46 doesn't cost much (certainly less than learning and reverse engineering the whole thing ) and is way better than any piggyback.
Of course you need to tune it, but that's like the FIRST rule when you modify an engine.

Mister86, what's your budget ?
What kind of mods do you want to do other than going ITB ? (alone, other than the throttle response, you are going to be pretty disappointed)

[mister86]

(02-07-2020 06:31 PM)Project D Wrote:  

(02-07-2020 05:59 PM)Ivan141 Wrote:  Theres only 1 guy that succesfully runs ITB's on an OEM ECU that I've heard of, and I believe he reprogrammed the ECU to trick it into doing something like alpha-N.
So never say never, but at the point where you can make the stock ECU your bitch you could probably make a healthy living off your skillset.

You can't reprogram the stock ECU, you have to remove the PROM and replace it with an EPROM or a daughter card and THEN program it to behave like you want.
But first you need to read the old memory and then reverse engineer the whole thing.
So like you said, at the point you are able to do that...

A MS clone like EFIgnition 46 doesn't cost much (certainly less than learning and reverse engineering the whole thing ) and is way better than any piggyback.
Of course you need to tune it, but that's like the FIRST rule when you modify an engine.

Mister86, what's your budget ?
What kind of mods do you want to do other than going ITB ? (alone, other than the throttle response, you are going to be pretty disappointed)

I really don’t have a budget, and can do anything. I just wanted a clean build with high quality parts, hence the Toda injection kit. I am rebuilding my motor right now, but am not upgrading cams, mild port job, headers, exhaust, things like that.