4AGE engine tuning discussion

[robokill]

tuning the 4age is expensive. If you can do it yourselve it is doable for around 2000 euro's (parts and some work done) But then you have at max around 200 hp if you have the right items and time to wait for em. (currently building an engine thats why!)

If the body work of the hachi is good than with a 1000 euro's you can have a nice setup. If you are looking near 1000 euro's I would suggest (if the car is for drifting only) to buy D2.

[NoHachi]

200hp for 2000 Euro's isn't going to happen. I know people will disagree, but I'll believe it when I see it.

I think the smile/euro ratio for suspension systems is about 3 times that of engine work, so invest there before anywhere else.

[Apolan]

yes i also think 200 hp NA for 2000 eur is a bit streching it.. Perhaps if you have ALOT of knowlidge and your own workshop to manufacture and modify the components + a dyno wher you can do the setting up.

Anyway cca 150 hp can be had fairly easy and cheap, and thats more than enough if your suspension is set up correctly. With too much power the ae looses its balance and becomes more of a race/drift car.. but with some 130-150 hp you really need to floor it to make it drift, makes the whole ordeal much more challenging and FUN

[oldeskewltoy]

VladaS2 - Why do you want an AE86? As Red and a few others have pointed out... it is 20+ years old.... it needs just about everything if it hasn't been maintained....

I'll be more blunt then others... there is NO way** you'll make 200hp and only spendy €2000. A good stand alone management system will set you back about €400 to €1400 and that is without ANY internal engine work.

Do the math.... for 200hp

Cams - €600-€700 - nothing crap allowed... trying to make 200hp
adj cam gears - €150-€300
pistons - €400-€700 - decent forged sets
gaskets - €170 - oem
bearings - €170 -oem
machine work - €400-€1000 - (depending on conditions of block, head, and what all you want/need to have done.
water pump - €70
oil pump - €100
injectors - €100-€300
custom intake manifold(ITBs) - €400-€600 - OEM rwd manifold begins to have a breathing problem at about 160 hp
header - €400-€700
engine management - €400-€1400
tuning time - €150-€400

These figures are based on US dollars... on products available in the USA. Pricing may be somewhat different in Europe... but not by more than 10% I'm guessing

Ok, I'm sure there are a few more parts... just can't think of them right away... Add the #s up...... north of €3000 is more likely.

Now... to build 150 hp... you can save at least €1000!
No management system needed....(save €400-€1400)
no ultra high prced cams...(save €200)
no forged, aftermarket pistons/use oem 10.3 slugs....(save €150)
no custom intake...(save €400-€600)


Oh... so far.... we haven't discussed labor (except the machine shop costs) calculate €40-€60 PER HOUR... for a competent shop.

What I'm trying to say is it always takes €€€... Either they were invested over the past 20 years... or you will have to invest in it now.....

*IF* you go for it... just go for it with your eyes WIDE OPEN

** - a "birdy" sent me an IM.... I need to qualify my remark... without an existing supply of parts, without ready 4AGE knowledge... without connections... without the ability to retune the oem ECU.... it would be impossible... or nearly so.

[jamiemirror]

oldeskewltoy, you totally forgot Megasquirt and low-pressure 4AGTE in your calculations.

[oldeskewltoy]

jamiemirror Wrote:oldeskewltoy, you totally forgot Megasquirt and low-pressure 4AGTE in your calculations.

No... I didn't.... Megasquirt is cheaper... but I've heard long term reliability problems with mega squirt... for proper tuning and running that tweaked a 4AGE... I'd be running something a bit more than a megasquirt

and for a low pressure turbo... it is no longer a n/a 4AGE.... also... if running a low pressure turbo(say HKS's kit)



the cost is still nearly €1900 and that is also without any internal engine work....
http://www.hks-power.co.jp/products/turb..._data.html

[Mux213]

Dan,

Offcourse getting such a kit is probably the smartest choice seeing HKS has put much effort into its development. That doesn't mean its the only or cheapest way.
All the parts needed except for the turbo and intercooler can be fabricated, and atleast the intercooler can be bought 2nd hand, people like Jamiemirror have access to that expertiese and living in lower wage countries it is actually very cost effective way of tuning.

That said, we're not talking about forced charge tuning here like you say, we're talking about n/a tuning. Also low pressure turbo charge system so you do not need to strengthen the internals has limits, and it is very depended on the engine you start with. Add the cost of rebuilding an engine to make sure it will last to the whole process.....

[jamiemirror]

Hmm low wage etc ....
but this is the truth behind all Chinese stuff at Ebay these days.
You can get good new genuine Garrett turbo for ~$800. Chinese copies will go 3X lower but lets try some quality stuff.
MS - another $250.
MS works. Yes, there are problems but not with genuine B&G boards (I never heard about problems with them). AFAIK B&G always insyst that resellers will use their circuit boards.
IC - ~$150-200 shipped in USA. Chinese againg but good enough for our application.
Bigger fuel injectors (7MGTE or similar 390-440cc range) - used up to $100. If we get them new - we must spend up to $350.
Headers - $150 shipped new. Again Chinese. If you have some welding equipment and expirience - you can build log-type (like HKS one shown) for very small amount of money.
Wastegate (if our turbo have none) - $80. Chinese.
Maybe I forgot anything ? Tubing, silicone houses, oil lines to/from turbo - roughly $100.
So our total excl. labour cost is $1680. If we buy new injectors we will need $1930.

Stock 9.4CR will take up to 0.8 bar boost and will produce our desired 200+hp with good amount of torque. Low-boost applications don't suffer from lag and have no problems with longevity. Maybe we can buy new MLS head gasket just to reach out $2000 limit - Ebay, $55-85 for Cometic/TRD one.

PS: yes, this is forced induction engine. Always cheaper than NA build when hp target crosses 160hp limit for 16V 4AGE.

[Red]

Do you guys have the new Matrix MTheory line available over there? Or something like it?

http://www.toyota.com/images/pdfs/mtheoryebroch.pdf

More hp *and* 30% higher gas mileage in a much heavier car than an AE86, which only goes to show the 4AGE is an obsolete engine. Sinking gobs of money into making it a more powerful obsolete engine, instead of starting with newer better technology, seems like an awful waste of money.

Yes, internal combustion engine technology HAS changed in the past 20 years.

Sticking 200hp into a car that never was a rocket seems almost criminal. These cars are nimble, and quick for their class. But they aren't top fuel dragsters and 200hp is totally wasted on them, unless you're trying to sucker bet newbies on a street race.

[jamiemirror]

Red, we just like that scrappy old non-efficient cheap car. It's a toy.
With 1.6 old tech giving the same result like new 1.8 one. I don't see 30% mileage advantage and bet that Matrix MTheory is slower than AE86.
I don't see LSD nor rear disc brakes in MTheory. And I'm sure that price of MTheory is significantly higher outside USA (like most cars, too sad).
So if I want small fast car for fun - why buy MTheory with all that good-looking stuff and extras instead of "create" car using my personal taste and preference - and starting from better platform (better in terms of aftermarket support, response to modifications etc.) ?
Keep in mind that most cars in Europe use 1.3-2.0 engines. About "200hp" wannabes - on the streets you can't "race" in "class". Stock 124hp can't compete with most mid- and small 2.0 cars (in Europe, maybe in USA the similar "class" are 3.5-4.0 engines). That's why someone wants to squeeze some additional power from that old inefficient engine ...

PS: Just checked specs of more powerfull (and same weight) Matrix XRS.
This is a car with similar to AE86 GTS performance. Now I'm pretty sure that MTheory can't give the same feel. If I want big wheels, AT transmission, electronic control etc - maybe I will prefer MTheory. Good small family car, nothing sporty here.