Bluetop Engine Rebuild multiple question Goal 150-160hp

[Hanzo]

(04-12-2021 05:56 PM)oldeskewltoy Wrote:  

(04-11-2021 08:11 PM)Hanzo Wrote:  

(04-11-2021 05:28 AM)oldeskewltoy Wrote:  Can you get to 150whp with a 4AGE, the answer is no problem, although the largeport intake manifold does become a challenge around 145-150whp. I'm making 145whp in my smallport* using Euro 10:1 pistons - but the head has been extensively worked - chambers now down to about 33cc, so compression is closer to 10.7:1 (* - smallport head and block, with a 40mm crank, rods, and 10:1 pistons) I'm using a mild cam Web camshafts 577 grind - equivalent to a 264 type, using 8.38mm lift. I've kept the smallport intake manifold (single T/B)

Thanks for clearifing that, i meant 150-160hp at the crank.
Which is more like 120-130whp. 150 whp would be fantastic, but i think this will lead to lot more upgrades down the road (like brakes, cooling etc.) I already have a "fast" car so the Levin doesn't need to fulfil that role.^^

For 120whp all you really need is a properly ported head, and about 10.5:1 compression. This is a largeport using smallport pistons, and a ported head. As far as manifolds - I kept the stock bigport intake, exhaust manifolds, and it retained stock engine management.


Video of pull here


The extra 10hp can come from a mild cam(256 type) upgrade.

It seems that a ported head does make a large difference. It also clearly visible that the TVIS is working. There is quite a dent at 4500U/min.^^
My idea was that ported head is useful if i want to add ITBs later down the road. I only want to build that engine once .

[Hanzo]

(04-13-2021 01:35 PM)Project D Wrote:  

(04-10-2021 07:31 PM)Hanzo Wrote:  [...]My goal is to get around 150hp. And maybe ITBs in the future (mostly for the sound )
[...]
My questions are
1. Are the above stats correct?
2. It seems that i can reach my power goals with the bluetop engine.
Or it wise to change to smallport?
3. I also want to change oil pump, water pump etc. I read that the 20V oilpump fits on any 4 AGE. Did anybody installed a 20V oil pump?
4. I also read on the garage 4AGE channel that there are different bigport head versions. Is that true?
5. Can anyone recommend a piston sets?
6. What is the max compression for a standard ECU? I read that 10,7-10,8:1 is possible with the standard ECU.
7. Do i need aftermarket ECU for ITBs?

1: Yes. 9.4:1 for bluetop worldwide except EU model (10:1), 10.3:1 are from a different bottom end (42/20mm instead of 40/18mm)
2: You can reach 150hp with your current engine, no issues.
One of my friends have 148hp with just a set of 264/256° HKS cams, 0.8mm head gasket and 0.5mm surfaced cylinder head. Nothing fancy, ZERO porting. (full martelius exhaust, stock intake and engine management)
3: Oil pump: 15100-19036 (latest 16v, 20v silvertop), Water pump: 16110-16010
4: If your car is from 83, you most likely have an early (nice) casting. So you don't have to worry about that.
5: 10:1 spec pistons 13101-16030-02 (don't forget the "-02") are still listed as available on Amayama
6: ECU don't care about the compression ratio of your engine. They are not AI, just electronic automaton who are made to run a set of parameters.
Once you start significantly modifying your engine, you get out of those parameters. So I would definitely recommend going for an aftermarket ECU. I would also replace the injectors.
7: YES ! Some peoples may claim running with ITB on the stock ECU, but there is a big difference between making an engine run and make it run PROPERLY !

(04-11-2021 05:28 AM)oldeskewltoy Wrote:  Some care should be used when discussing power ratings - engine power means very little in the real world, wheel horsepower is a far better tell. Wheel hp measured 1:1 (many 4th gears, but not all are 1:1)

While I agree that power at the wheel is a better tool to compare car to car performance, it's a BAD idea to refer to WHP when we are talking engine tuning. Transmission loss can be massively different between car to car.
If you are lucky you may be able to get 150whp with as little as 160hp, or as much as 190hp...

Hello Project D,

sorry for my late answer. And also thank you for the detailed reply.
My answers
3.) good to know i will order this oil and water pump
5.) nice that there a still available. I will first try to find decent custom pistons like Dan recommended.
6.) That's a god tip. I wanted to change the injectors anyway, also I want to keep my build futureproof so i new ECU will be useful in the future. Can you recommend a ECU? I saw some youtubers like sushpants using ECUs from the brand LINK.
7.) That is a big difference, as you said. I want my Levin to run properly.^^

[Project D]

(04-15-2021 09:55 PM)Hanzo Wrote:  5.) nice that there a still available. I will first try to find decent custom pistons like Dan recommended.
6.) That's a god tip. I wanted to change the injectors anyway, also I want to keep my build futureproof so i new ECU will be useful in the future. Can you recommend a ECU? I saw some youtubers like sushpants using ECUs from the brand LINK.
7.) That is a big difference, as you said. I want my Levin to run properly.^^

Pistons: if you want them made "locally" you could look at Wossner.
Otherwise, plenty of good options out there (Traum, CP, JE, etc...)

Injectors: Go with something modern. having data is a plus.
Not all injectors will fit. They have to be 11mm top feed, and they have to be "long".

ECU: I have tuned a few in the last 10 years.
If you are going to get it tuned by a professional:
I would recommend to see what your tuner is familiar with. If you choose ECU from brand "X", but your tuner only know / tune brand "Y", it can be problematic...

If you are going to tune it yourself:
First, make sure you will be able to do it. If you never touched an engine management in your life, you probably won't (especially with ITB)
If you've never done it but you want to, the 4AG with the stock intake is actually a good platform to start with.
It's not crazy complicated as some would make it be, but it does require a bit of knowledge. So learn the basics first.

Also, list what your needs would be. Nothing worse than buying something and realizing later on that it can't do what you want (lack of input/output, functionality, etc...)

For a 4A-GE, if you want it to be future-proof you need at least:
2 temp input for air and coolant (but I would recommend at least 3)
2 to 4* analog input, one being dedicated to the throttle position (depending if it have onboard map sensor and wideband controler)
2 trigger input
1 digital input
1 CANBUS
4 ignitions output (only 1 if you want to keep the distributor)
4 injection output (no need for peak and hold if you plan to use modern injectors)
4 spare output (fuel pump relay, idle control, etc...)

Link is good but can end up quite expensive. An AtomX would work, the futur-proof option would be the FuryX. (I personally only dealt with a G4+ Xtreme)

Megasquirt. I have done plenty but I would advise AGAINST it. The appeal was the OEM ECU connector with the, now discontinued, DIYPNP version (not to be confused with the MSPNP, only for the US version of the AE86).
Lack a tone of features, use the obsolete serial port for communication...

MaxxECU. A solid option. the futur-proof option would be the Sport version.

If your want to spend more on the engine management than the car itself, MoTeC, Emtron, Syvecs, Bosch Motorsport, Cosworth. All fabulous ECU but crazy expensive !

[oldeskewltoy]

(04-16-2021 04:45 AM)Project D Wrote:  I would recommend to see what your tuner is familiar with. If you choose ECU from brand "X", but your tuner only know / tune brand "Y", it can be problematic...

Can't stress this enough...... I often recommend shopping tuning shops, and once you find one you trust, go with something they are familiar tuning....

[Power_uP]

Its strange how Megasquirt always seemed popular, but I've never encountered a single person who would recommend it.

[Project D]

(04-16-2021 05:06 PM)oldeskewltoy Wrote:  

(04-16-2021 04:45 AM)Project D Wrote:  I would recommend to see what your tuner is familiar with. If you choose ECU from brand "X", but your tuner only know / tune brand "Y", it can be problematic...

Can't stress this enough...... I often recommend shopping tuning shops, and once you find one you trust, go with something they are familiar tuning....

Sadly Tuning shop in Europe are not as common as in the USA.
I don't know about Germany, but here in France I could probably count real tuning shop (not generic chip tuning) on one hand...

(04-16-2021 06:50 PM)Power_uP Wrote:  Its strange how Megasquirt always seemed popular, but I've never encountered a single person who would recommend it.

Back in the day, they used to be pretty cheap. (12 years ago a MS2 was less than €300 shipping to Europe included...)
And, if they stayed cheap, as a learning tool they would be perfect.

Actually, I WOULD recommend the "illegal clones" for anybody who want to experiment or get started.
(Cost around $100/150 for a "MS2" based copy. I will not name them as they are pretty easy to find)

[Hanzo]

(04-16-2021 04:45 AM)Project D Wrote:  

Quote:Pistons: if you want them made "locally" you could look at Wossner.
Otherwise, plenty of good options out there (Traum, CP, JE, etc...)

Thanks for the recommendations. I will look them through one by one. Already did Wossner.

Quote:ECU: I have tuned a few in the last 10 years.
If you are going to get it tuned by a professional:
I would recommend to see what your tuner is familiar with. If you choose ECU from brand "X", but your tuner only know / tune brand "Y", it can be problematic...

My mechanic also told me that. It also makes a lot of sense.^^

Quote:If you are going to tune it yourself:
First, make sure you will be able to do it. If you never touched an engine management in your life, you probably won't (especially with ITB)
If you've never done it but you want to, the 4AG with the stock intake is actually a good platform to start with.
It's not crazy complicated as some would make it be, but it does require a bit of knowledge. So learn the basics first.

Would be pretty interesting. I like to tinker with stuff. It is defintely not easy to find a good tuning shop in germany. We have like 2 decent tuning shops for Lotus cars in Germany.

Quote:Also, list what your needs would be. Nothing worse than buying something and realizing later on that it can't do what you want (lack of input/output, functionality, etc...)

For a 4A-GE, if you want it to be future-proof you need at least:
2 temp input for air and coolant (but I would recommend at least 3)
2 to 4* analog input, one being dedicated to the throttle position (depending if it have onboard map sensor and wideband controler)
2 trigger input
1 digital input
1 CANBUS
4 ignitions output (only 1 if you want to keep the distributor)
4 injection output (no need for peak and hold if you plan to use modern injectors)
4 spare output (fuel pump relay, idle control, etc...)

Link is good but can end up quite expensive. An AtomX would work, the futur-proof option would be the FuryX. (I personally only dealt with a G4+ Xtreme)

Megasquirt. I have done plenty but I would advise AGAINST it. The appeal was the OEM ECU connector with the, now discontinued, DIYPNP version (not to be confused with the MSPNP, only for the US version of the AE86).
Lack a tone of features, use the obsolete serial port for communication...

MaxxECU. A solid option. the futur-proof option would be the Sport version.

If your want to spend more on the engine management than the car itself, MoTeC, Emtron, Syvecs, Bosch Motorsport, Cosworth. All fabulous ECU but crazy expensive !

I will go with your advice to first find a decent tuning shop and ask what ECUs he uses normally. And also keep in mind what and how many input/putput connections i actually need.

I won't buy a MOTEC like Tsuchiya aka Driftking but something decent.
And thanks again.

Edit: I will figure out how to quote correctly in the future

---

(04-16-2021 07:25 PM)Project D Wrote:  Actually, I WOULD recommend the "illegal clones" for anybody who want to experiment or get started.
(Cost around $100/150 for a "MS2" based copy. I will not name them as they are pretty easy to find)

This does sound like a good cost effective DIY solution.