T3 FULL coil over system (front and rear), who is using them

[hachirokuGTV]

Whatever you do, make sure you can adjust the height of the shock body, you'll have far more versatility that way. Why not just get a greddy, bc, stance, driftworks setup? I'm not so keen on having all that stress on the shock tower. You will still be able to adjust your ride height, plus keep it all captive. The MCN sport setup has no shock body height adjustment so when the springs are wound all the way down they wont be captive. You could ask for the min and max lengths of the shock to see if it will suit but I doubt you will be able to go real low and captive with those. I little preload isn't a bad thing either.

[4000GT]

The greddy setup is around $3500, and I can make a fully adjustable coilover setup using Koni gear for $2700 locally, so that doesnt really stack up. I dont personally see any issue using the shock mount, especially given I can lift the back of my car up by hand its that light. BC not happy with their quality.

I think doing a Koni adjustable height and damper front end, and a Koni shock and custom spring (coil and shock setup not coilover), might be the way to go.

[drako323]

Quality in manufacturing is a very complicated issue. Let's take the tolerance factor as the most important one:

A designer can ask for a certain tolerance, but if the equipment is not right, then that design will never be realised.. So if we accept that a part of the production (the trd damper) of a manufacturer is of greater quality (meaning tighter tolerance) this would mean they would require the equipment to achieve this. So either they would use their existing production line, from which they make their own dampers (at the same tolerance - quality), or invest on a new "better" one, which is a significant cost, not only in equipment, but also in space, employees, training etc. I can only guess that if TRD came and ask for a tighter tolerance than KYB could achieve, they would say: "sorry guys, we just can't do it" rather than consider that investment.

And for that conclusion I have to suppose that an international manufacturer such as KYB, with many successfull years in the market would take full advantage of the capabilities of their equipment to make quality parts. Why wouldn't they?

Of course I could just be too naive!

Another thing that would make sense is that SPC in a contracted limited production could be more accurate.

[4000GT]

The equipment is constant. Its not like they use one set of tools for one job, and another set that delivers a different quality for another. Its about the engineering design and materials and tolerances. Here is a scenario in a plant in China I worked in setting up a rubber goods manufacturer. There are certain tolerances on the thickness of a butyl cladding. The machinery is constant but there are variances depending on the ambient temps (and other factors) which effects the curing rates and gauge of the cladding. The stock which was at a very high accuracy in gauge tolerance was branded X and went to architects for high end construction, the sections which were of variable gauge were branded Y and went to the domestic construction market. In this case, the product was not even specified differently, it just naturally worked out that way.

A manufacturer produces tolerances that are fit for purpose. Ergo the entry level low grade shock, does not have or require the same tolerances as the high end race shock. Its about the quality control process...

In the TRD versus KYB, we are also saying there are likely design and material differences. It is also EXTREMELY likely that TRD own the IP of that configuration and the manufacturer would be prohibited from delivering that good (again for very obvious reasons) to the market. Else all TRD's specification to the specific model would be useless.

By SPC I assume you mean statistical process control? If so, yes, contract manufactured goods would likely be tested to a range of variances. They would also look at CPK indices in the first instance too. I lecture SPC at the local University

[drako323]

In principle I agree, but we are not comparing the basic KYB damper with the TRD race shock. I wouldn't expect the AGX to be the same quality as the ExcelG, because they are for different applications. And there are other matters in the design of a damper that would make it more appropriate for race use that aren't under discussion here. For instance you would expect a race damper to be monotube by design, which by definition would call for tighter design tolerances, especially in insert applications. Also a race damper would be repairable, internally adjustable (the proper way to do it ). And so on. You are probably right as far as rubber components are concerned etc. And then a soon failed KYB seal would prove that.

[drako323]

Do you teach SPC as part of a manufacturing technology module?

Manufacturing is also my field even though I now work in building mechanical design. Used to teach in the University of Patras. Also I had lectures in Lotus on vehicle dynamics in general and part of that was damper setup.

So you can understand my interest on the subject!

[Uzelac]

4000GT Wrote:I think doing a Koni adjustable height and damper front end, and a Koni shock and custom spring (coil and shock setup not coilover), might be the way to go.

And why not Tokico with this setup ?

[4000GT]

drako323 Wrote:In principle I agree, but we are not comparing the basic KYB damper with the TRD race shock. I wouldn't expect the AGX to be the same quality as the ExcelG, because they are for different applications. And there are other matters in the design of a damper that would make it more appropriate for race use that aren't under discussion here. For instance you would expect a race damper to be monotube by design, which by definition would call for tighter design tolerances, especially in insert applications. Also a race damper would be repairable, internally adjustable (the proper way to do it ). And so on. You are probably right as far as rubber components are concerned etc. And then a soon failed KYB seal would prove that.

So its a matter of relativity, I argue that the ExcelG is to AGX as AGX is to TRD. However its all hearsay as we dont know any of the data about the manufacturing materials and internal design. I can only assume they are different. If I was TRD, and I made a shock specifically for a car, and I had a manufacturer produce it for me on contract, I would NEVER allow that manufacturer produce an identical product branded AGX at a cheaper price. If that info went into the market, and was validated, then my TRD product would be severely compromised (in many ways).

[4000GT]

drako323 Wrote:Do you teach SPC as part of a manufacturing technology module?

Manufacturing is also my field even though I now work in building mechanical design. Used to teach in the University of Patras. Also I had lectures in Lotus on vehicle dynamics in general and part of that was damper setup.

So you can understand my interest on the subject!

I taught it in Engineering (im not an engineer though) and in Management Science (essentially quantitative models).

[4000GT]

Uzelac Wrote:

4000GT Wrote:I think doing a Koni adjustable height and damper front end, and a Koni shock and custom spring (coil and shock setup not coilover), might be the way to go.

And why not Tokico with this setup ?

Essentially ease. The koni I can buy at my local shop, HTS I have to ship in.

Im still really trying to work out what stroke etc I will need...