4AGE engine tuning discussion

[NoHachi]

Almost forgot: suzuki/mazda V6..aluminium and awesome head design. Duratec 4 cyls with miata box, probably even a RX7 turbo2 setup could be sourced on the cheap.

[Mux213]

NoHachi Wrote:The list goes on and on...My only point being..you want power? Its right there, available on the cheap. Remember that the next time the machine shop makes a couple of mistakes causing your engine to blow within 100miles (not directed towards Jamie btw).

And you still don't get the point.

This discussion is not about the cheapest high HP engine that you can put into a hachi. Yes you can do all that, yes its smart to do all that, yes I'm sure people want to do all that seeing the nice threads we have in this forum about SR20 swaps (Jasper/zax), S2000 swaps (ian/eric), etc.

THIS THREAD, is about those stupid idiots that want to know about tuning 4AG engines!

So last time I'm saying this. STOP BICKERING ABOUT THE FACT THAT ITS NOT THE SMARTEST OPTION TO TUNE 4AGS!

If its expensive to tune a 4AG, if its high risk to 4AGs, we'll all be covering that in this thread, then we'll leave it up to people to deside if they want to spend that kind of money.

But I'm going to lock this thread if we're going to keep bickering about this because I for one am VERY interested in knowing these options, what it will cost, and what it will produce.

Right now 9 out of 10 posts in this thread is someone posting "don't tune 4ag because its a waist of money, drop an xxxx engine in it instead".
Enough already! People who are smart will buy a second hand S2000 and just drive it. Much more fun, costs alot less too!

[Abe]

Returning to the principal topic of this post....

I thinks this is an interesant link:
http://www.billzilla.org/4agmods.htm#115hp

Regards

[oldeskewltoy]

Bill Sherwood is always a good idea to learn!

[Ivan141]

Bill's a great guy indeed.. the man has simply tried every 4age mod for himself some time in the past.

[Apolan]

funny lad! I always learn something new on his page..

[robokill]

HMmz never sen that Pic Ivan though he drove with me a long way trough holland. I spoke with him about many posibilities.

The reason I started this topic is this power sheet



I know what the man has done with the engine and I know its possible to reach around 200 hp.

What do you need?

ITB's (already in stock)
Wild crazy cams with around 10-11 mm lift (around 500 euro's)
Toyota Yaris vavle (i think it are called retainers?) (new 180 euro)
stiffer valve springs (150 euro)
4age ae92 high comp pistons (and a 42mm lower blocK) (new 4 piece is around 400 euro's)

WIth gaskets and rings etc around another 400

MS with soem work around 350 euro's (i'd rather take it large)

The exhaust will be the problem. As only really good headers are around 1500 euro's. I think with a modified stock exhaust you should be able to get around the 190 hp.

It will take alot of time but if I look at the power sheet we don't get a 9000 rpm engine (which I don't mind) But in any case I just think its fun to bring a 4age which is standard in the car to such a high power output.

If I start building. (I shoudl ahve a 42mm lower block now still need to rip it apart) I will write down exactly what I will spend.

In that case we can see what it will cost. In the end I will bring it to a power bank and see the output.

With the current ideas I will at least surpass the blacktop 20v. And I will be aiming for around 200 hp.

[Mux213]

Robo,

you didn't start this topic, I split this topic out of another discussion and your post happened to be the first

But indeed, bill is a great guy, shame he isn't on the forum alot anymore. It was alot of fun meeting him. That picture has been on my website for ages btw, here is the rest of that COLD night:
http://www.basenlily.nl/album/Cars/My%20...2006/2004/
(about halfway down the page)

Anyways, now I'm going offtopic lol

[Morten]

NoHachi Wrote:Sorry Jamie, but you'll have to show me a dynosheet with boostnumbers before I believe those 200hp...0.5bar will net you stockhp*(1+boost)*15% efficiency loss..== 124*(1+0.5)*0.85 = maybe 160hp. And if not, I would be very interested to see the physics if that setup..increasing or consolidating VE with a turbo.

Where do you get the 15% efficiency loss from? I know the conventional idea is that with 0.5bar of boost you get 150% power of NA minus a bit since everyting is not optimal. However I have seen in real life engines beeing converted from NA to turbo that has gotten more than this (with a proper setup). I think one of the reasons is that no NA engine (at least in stock form) really sees the full vakuum. Already if, for example, you have 0.1bar pressure loss through airfilter-afm-throttle-inlet manifold in NA form, and then compare it to 0.5bar boost after putting on a turbo the difference grows, and teoretical new effect would be closer to: 1.5/0.9*124=206.7hp. I have not measured real loss on a stock 4AGE, but I don't think it wold be less than 0.1bar (1.5psi) when completely stock. Remember this is the same reason why you get most of the power difference when converting to ITB's, only magnified due to the boost.

Just my opinion. I am by no means an expert so please feel free to correct me.

[NoHachi]

[Putting on Mux flamesuit..just answering his question buddy :-)]

You are absolutely right Morten..about the boost vs vacuum part. So you could add one tenth of a bar to the calculation.. The loss of 15% can usually be attributed due to the greater resistance of the turbo decreasing VE, higher head and inlet tract temperatures and general poor tuning seen in ghetto setups.
On a setup with a nice equal length tubular header and matching full open exhaust, decently sized intercooler, efficient BB turbo and effective motor management that loss might drop to 0%. But such a setup will cost you 2000E minimum (given new bought parts, off course you can haggle and shop for bargains).
So that would make my most positive estimate for a 4AGE at 0.5bar boost around 180hp. Lets wait and see what numbers Jamie comes up with at the dyno.

On topic: Robo: don't forget about machining costs for performing an overbore and hone..(unless you have someone who can do that for free, in which case you are to contact me immediately ;-) )