4AGE engine tuning discussion

[Red]

Jamie, I don't say the Matrix in any version is much like the old Corolla, although technically the Matrix is registered in the US as a Corolla wagon, it is a Corolla on a stretched chassis. Our EPA highway mileage ratings for it are about 40, compared to 29-30 on the old GTS. That's a huge difference. And, having been in one, I can tell you it is a peppy car.

I have no idea if it has two drive wheels or one--its FWD anyway. And it woudl certainly roll over well before a GTS would.<G> And the whole fuss over some borrowed wheels and a special retro paint color, doesn't impress me any more than the chrome falsie around the exhaust pipe.

Still, the engine is rated 126hp /vs/ 112hp, 1/8th more hp and 1/8th more displacement...but lugging a much larger wind load around and still somehow getting significantly higher highway mileage. Can't just be the gearbox.<G> That VVT must be doing something.

Then again, compared to a number of other engines (Honda) Toyota hasn't been especially powerful for the displacement in the stock version. Of course if I wanted *power* I'd start with a real US muscle car engine--not a riceburner. No computers, no turbos, no fuss required.<G>

[jamiemirror]

http://www.toyota.com/matrix/specs.html

Quote:Mileage Estimates (mpg city/highway)
Manual 30/36
Automatic 29/34

This is official data from manufacturer, why should I believe to 40mpg statemens ?

AE86 GTS starts with 112hp and top version is 124hp rated (MAP/AFM, eco-stuff etc).
Yeah, vvt is good thing (the 4AGE 20V is very good example) but here you compare FE vs GE engines. Economic vs pure sport. 6k RPM vs 7k+ one. In this particular case I doubt that vvt means performance.

I'm not sure that we should underestimate Toyota sport engines. 2ZZFE vs 1.8 VTI hondas, 4AGE vs ZC1/B16 ones. The iron block and closed deck of old Toyota engines are advantage for NA-to-forced induction conversions - no block guard required, 4AGZE internals survive in very high power levels (no stock Honda internals comparable to these - except maybe S2000 ones).
About real USA muscle car - yes, why not. You are in USA. This is not possible (and popular) in Europe due to some reasons (taxes, fuel cost etc.).

[Red]

36? I must be misinformed, I'd heard 40. Maybe that's the regular Corolla sedans I'm confusing it with?

"AE86 GTS starts with 112hp and top version is 124hp rated (MAP/AFM, eco-stuff etc). " The US AE88 was 112hp for 1985, and that was the top model for the 4AGE in that year, in the US. IIRC the last two years were rated the same.

"I'm not sure that we should underestimate Toyota sport engines. " I don't underestimate them. There are some tradeoffs, usually power-versus-cost-versus-durability and you can pick any *one* of those, but you'll pay with the other two. In 1985 terms, this was a hot engine and they've proven reasonably durable, too. Of course it is also noisy as all hell with all the valve and pushrod clatter...but that's expected when you buy a riceburner at 1/4 the price of a BMW.<G>

[jamiemirror]

Oh, pushrod clatter in 4AGE ? Maybe we talk about different engines. AFAIK 4AGE have no pushrods. Also AFAIK (from personal expirience) the clatter is common sound from some BMW engines from '80 (this is not joke, the nice example is 2.8 one !).
I find interesting article (not even Toyota related) best describing why someone choose american muscle car and why his "opponent" - light (not even all-japanese) car. Just matter of taste and preference - in that article (taxes and gas prices are not concern in it):
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/featur...g_cobra_r/

Again - this is not AE86 related example - just best describes why someone will like this kind of car (as topic states).

[Mux213]

Ehm guys,

Why do we care whether a 1983 designed car is still up to 2007 specs?

Offcourse the technology is dated by todays standards, offcourse the 4AG is old and there are better engines out there, offcourse it doesn't make any sense to spend 10 times the value of these cars into modifying them. It doesn't stop with adding power, to be exact, most of us guys first poor ample amounts of money into fixing rust, then ample amounts into upgrading the suspension, then ample amounts into welding all sorts of safeties in, then ample amounts into lightening the chassis with fiberglass or carbon, and finally we upgrade the engine...

In the end, when we look at the amount of money we've spend, and the car we'd end up with, we'd probably would have been much better off buying a more modern car.

So why do we do it? Because we LOVE THIS LITTLE CAR and that has nothing to do with sense nor with logic.

So again I ask you, why are we debating this? Can we please get back to the topic of how we can get as much power for as little money as possible from these crappy obsolete 4AGs?

Thanks

(ps. how do you guys feel about splitting this topic into one about the N/A tuning and one about the turbo tuning, I'm getting very interested in this low budget turbo tuning thing, even if I hate turbos... )

[Red]

Jamie, you are probably right, I haven't needed to tear it down and haven't been concerned with how the hamsters turn their little treadmills inside the engine. Around 70mph, the symphony under the hood becomes what I call my "audible cruise control", I know from all the racket that I'm going faster than most highway speed limits here.

Mux-
You're right, love is at the heart of it all.<G> The AE88 is just a sweet little thing, even if it is old, crude, noisy, and underpowered by modern standards. I call it a bantamweight, like the boxing class. Not ultralight, not big, but nimble on its feet and nicely balanced.

"how we can get as much power for as little money as possible" Hmmm...two contradictory goals? Tune it up and leave it be?<G> Here in the US I'd just be happy to find real gasoline, everything in the pumps has been diluted with 10% ethanol. UGH. Serves no purpose at all except making the corn suppliers richer.

[Mux213]

Red Wrote:"how we can get as much power for as little money as possible" Hmmm...two contradictory goals?

Very true, I didn't say that tuning was cheap. Whatever way you look at it, tuning is expensive.

However, how expensive is determined by three factors:
a) how much (reliable) power do you want
b) how skilled are you
c) how stupid are you

Let me elaborate.
A), the more power you want, the more it will cost you, its that simple, the more power you want the more you ask from your engine, the more parts need to be upgraded. Especially if you want to keep it reliable.
B) how skilled you are, or maybe even who you are. For 99% of the people on this board that want to tune their engine, they do not have the skill and thus have to bring their car to a tuning shop. Only a select few have the skills to fabricate their own parts and do the work themselves. The difference can be thousands of dollars
C) how stupid you are, and the reason for my remark. So many people out there just buy the most expensive tuning parts because they are the most expensive tuning parts. Often the most expensive, aren't the best. And even if you buy the most expensive parts, if they don't match up and don't work well together, you can have a crappy engine as a result.

So thats why I say, the most power for the least amount of money. But that least amount of money can still be a SHITLOAD of money

And you are very right, for most people, they should just enjoy the hachi roku as is, at not ruin it by bad, not thought through tuning, because they think they can improve the power with 200 dollars worth of parts...

[NoHachi]

Biggest problem holding back AE86 power levels is not money but the snobist attitude of most owners. Always fun to see people spend tons of money trying to make the 4A-GE into a flawed B16..
If you want the power, its out there. Available cheaply, reliably and relatively simply.

Maybe I just have too big a heart..love everything that brings a smile to my face. Toyota logo not required.

[Mux213]

NoHachi Wrote:Biggest problem holding back AE86 power levels is not money but the snobist attitude of most owners. Always fun to see people spend tons of money trying to make the 4A-GE into a flawed B16..
If you want the power, its out there. Available cheaply, reliably and relatively simply.

Maybe I just have too big a heart..love everything that brings a smile to my face. Toyota logo not required.

yes yes yes, we know that dropping an SR in there is easy and cheap...

damn nissan lovers....

[NoHachi]

I'm not talking about nissan engines..This has been my pet peeve way before I ever considered that option cseriously. People talk about the 4A-GE as if its some kind of pure kind of godly entity with tremendous character..they then continue to rip out the heart and soul of that engine, leaving only a lump of metal with 1.6l sized holes in it and dropping in mongrel parts from wherever..WTF!? That is NOT the same treasured 4A-GE you started with..its a hot cammed 9000rpm 1.6l engine..just like a B16, or a B18,SR20DE, 3S-GE, K20, F20, etc...Then these same people start thrashtalking about these other engines even though their end product is closer to those engines then it ever was to a 4A-GE..

I know i know..its an emotional thing (sure has nothing to do with logic), it just gets on my tits when people start whining about costs. You wanna be a snob, be a man and pay the price without complaining.






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