What brand of street shocks do you have?

[Red]

Apolan, when you ask about AE92 shocks bear in mind they are designed for a DIFFERENT CAR.

"Short" is meaningless unless it is used in comparison to something else. Short, medium, and long. Or, shortened versus original.

In order to absorb energy (shock) you can do it gradually, or try to do it suddenly. A sudden energy transfer will never be felt (in the seat of your pants<G&gt as gently as a slow energy transfer, and in order to transfer the shock of a 1500kg vehicle bouncing on the road, you need a certain length shock absorber in order to do that more gently. Shorten that--at all--and the transfer becomes more rapid and the shock to the vehicle and drive becomes harsher. Or, you can compensate by changing the design, sure. But then what happens when there is a larger shock? Oops, there is no longer the capacity to dampen it and the suspension bottoms out. No matter how the valving in the shock is set up, it is only "absorbing" while the cylinder is compressing and the oil is bleeding through the valve. In a short stroke shock, it stops compressing sooner--because it has reached the end of the cylinder and bottomed out. That's when the suspension goes "boom" and you start breaking things. (Or, the front end alignment is knocked out first as the energy is "absorbed" into the other parts.)

Ask any of the guys who race on tracks for a living, the pro circuit. Their shocks are designed for a flat professional track--and they'd bottom out and break in street use, for that reason.

For us, street use means you need the ability to hit railroad crossing at 40mph without bottoming out. To hit potholes at 50mph without bottoming out. And to hit the uneven concrete slabs on the highway at higher speeds, and absorb them without abusing the kidneys.<G> In order to get that wider longer range of absorbtion--you need longer cylinders than for track use.

In physics there are only trade-offs. Magic is another department, and magicians just don't make shock absorbers. Even though many shock absorber companies claim they do!<G>

[Ivan141]

Red,
Basically what your saying is people should stick to stock rideheight.
Might well have a point, but I dont see it happening anytime soon.
For street use a short stroke shock might well be better than a full stroke setup (when riding lowered), since the short stroke will allow for more compression stroke. I just dont know how much room for the extra compression there is left in the wheelwell's, seems to be quite a bit, as opposed to my volvo trackcar, which will bottom out on the top of the wheelwell.

[Red]

Ivan-
"Basically what your saying is people should stick to stock rideheight."
Not for everyone, and not for every purpose, but for *most* owners, if they are using the car for *street* driving, stock is a good place to be.

The original suspension was damn good for a riceburner. Probably most of the owners today have never driven a car with the stock suspension, unless it was totally shot by the time they first drove it, so they have no idea how good it was to start with. I know that if you lower the car another inch or two, that's all the difference it takes to rip things out on manhole covers and other normal street hazards--I've seen that happen on cars that were just a little lower than the GTS. Then again, I've seen lots of people driving the huge SUVs that have taken over the streets in the US, nearly stopping to creep over small pavement changes that their beasts could run right over without a burp.<G>

In the Hummer H3 (which is an extensively modified Chevy pickup truck at heart) I have gone over large speed bump and laughed because I barely felt it. The same speed bump that kicks my car up and disrupts even a Cadillac. Well, the H3 has a lot of suspension travel, because it is designed for off road use and you need the travel to absorb "off" roads.<G>

If someone wants to set up the AE8x for track use, and they really don't worry about normal street hazards, by all means put in a lower and tighter suspension! I'm all for it. But I did start the thread asking about STREET shocks, for STREET driving. A lot of highly paid guys in white jackets got paid good salaries to design the stock suspension. Some overpaid guys in marketing probably said "that's nice but what can we grab from stock to make it cheaper" too.<G> Still, a lot of professional planning went into designing a competition grade suspension for the GTS, which is not the same as the SR5 or base Corolla. All the parts--roll bars, chassis bushings, etc.--are designed as a system. That doesn't mean you can't do better, or make the system work better at different purposes.

It just means they did a pretty good job, stock, and it is just as easy to make it WORSE as it is to make it better. Probably easier to make it worse, ever see a car break the suspension?<G>

If I were going to change it for track, I'd get a matched set of shocks and springs from TRD or Koni or someone else--who has, again, spent a lot of money professionally analyzing the way they work together, and designing them to work together.

Just one man's opinion, not calling anyone "wrong"-- unless they take a torch and cut the springs down and claim that's going to improve anything. (But I still thank them for trashing another GTS, that just makes mine more valuable. <G&gt

[SekiguchiUeno]

by that i completely agree with red, in last half year i changed my mind from heavy suspension upgrades and stiff springs lowering etc.. to very good worked dampers with enough travel. you can watch bmi on touge

i am no master of stering wheel so i need that the wheels are mostly in contact with the surface even on bad roads and uneven surface.
suspensions is predicted to do that.

ok my setup for now
koni ae86 sports (set full soft)so the wheels have enouh travel to stay in contact with the surface by rebunding, and stock springs, we will see, maybe next step will be 3,5/3-2,5kg springs but stock ride height. i pass on other things i dont like as rca tractions brackets...
i am no drifter, i like more the smoothnes and rally driving. the flow.

[NoHachi]

Quote:In order to absorb energy (shock) you can do it gradually, or try to do it suddenly. A sudden energy transfer will never be felt (in the seat of your pants<G&gt as gently as a slow energy transfer, and in order to transfer the shock of a 1500kg vehicle bouncing on the road, you need a certain length shock absorber in order to do that more gently. Shorten that--at all--and the transfer becomes more rapid and the shock to the vehicle and drive becomes harsher. Or, you can compensate by changing the design, sure. But then what happens when there is a larger shock? Oops, there is no longer the capacity to dampen it and the suspension bottoms out. No matter how the valving in the shock is set up, it is only "absorbing" while the cylinder is compressing and the oil is bleeding through the valve. In a short stroke shock, it stops compressing sooner--because it has reached the end of the cylinder and bottomed out. That's when the suspension goes "boom" and you start breaking things. (Or, the front end alignment is knocked out first as the energy is "absorbed" into the other parts.)

Sorry Red, a lot of what you say makes sense, but a lot also doesn't quite add up. A lot of the problem lies in the way you treat shocks seperate from springs. That doesn't cut it when you are considering spring-mass-damper-systems.

Quote:Oops, there is no longer the capacity to dampen it and the suspension bottoms out. No matter how the valving in the shock is set up, it is only "absorbing" while the cylinder is compressing and the oil is bleeding through the valve. In a short stroke shock, it stops compressing sooner--because it has reached the end of the cylinder and bottomed out.

This is not entirely correct..in fact, this is exactly what happens to lowered cars with long shocks. The working area of the shock is shifted towards the rebound side, with very little bump travel left. Using shorter shocks is our way of compromising such, that we end up again with a reasonable amount of both bump and rebound travel. (by the way, things dont go boom, you hit the bumpstops, springrates are upped drastically and your shocks get a second chance at dampening the movement while the suspensions moves from bump to rebound etc.)

You are correct that we now have (slightly) reduced the total stroke our setup can produce (someone please compare free and collapsed lengths between short and normal shocks, I suspect the difference might be minimal. The XX% reduction in stroke however is usually more then compensated by the increase in wheelrate from stiffer springs and thus reduced roll angles.

All of this does increase the cycle frequency of the suspension making things less comfortable. But that is not the entire story... You can get away with higher wheelrates when using A-quality shocks. These have a smooth transition between low speed and high speed dampening, a lot better then the stock OEM toyota stuff. This can make for a surprisingly comfortable street setup, only suffering from problems in situations you describe, hitting large irregularities in the road. Its up to everyone to decide whether that discomfort balances out the benefits from lower COG, sharper steering respons and improved camber controll.

[Apolan]

That makes more sense to me. And besides isnt the springs' job to absorb the energy from the road irregularities?

[Red]

Apolan-
"And besides isnt the springs' job to absorb the energy from the road irregularities?" AFAIK the springs' main job is to push your wheels back down away from the car, and the shocks are there to absorb the impact and slow the wheels down when they are pushed up into the car.
To some extent both do both jobs though, yes. All the more reason they need to be designed and installed as matched components.

NoHachi-
So what do you consider "A-quality" shocks? And what do you consider makes that difference, in terms of construction features in them?

[oldeskewltoy]

Red - sweet Red.... you like stirring the pot... he had a similar thread going over at C4AG... many posters, much discussion.

You CAN'T buy oem anymore.... that leaves you with options.... parts store no names, Gabriels, Monroe, Tokico, Koni, KYB, Bilstein.

Do you know how many of my clients would LOVE that kind of choice for their 20+ year old car????

Red - have you replaced all the lower control arms/trailing arms? Unless you do you will NEVER feel that original feeling again...(certain OEM bushings only available in OEM hard parts) with old beat up bushings. nope... TRD won't do, high density rubber... changes... DON'T even mention Prothane... hahahahahahahahaha talk about changes!!

I sympathize.. I really do, I've restored cars... know what all is involved... you didn't think ahead when you bought your new car... you should have bought two... stripped the second for a parts mule........

In the here and now.....the closest your going to find is either the KYB(likely a touch soft), or the Tokicos( likely a touch firm)

[Red]

Hey, Dan. Another refugeee from c4ag. There must be more than just hardware problems for it to be offline for so long.

<<You CAN'T buy oem anymore>> I noticed.<G>

<<Do you know how many of my clients would LOVE that kind of choice for their 20+ year old car???? >> Dunno, what kinds of cars do they have? Detroit usually is better at supporting parts for longer, but of course the market for them is bigger. Monroe has a big market share but they never impressed me, they're TOO OEM. In the sense that stock GM OEM shocks always were junk. But having been on the other side of the desk--it cost the dealers $25 to upgrade to heavy duty or sport shocks circa 1980 (for a $6000 car which was pretty high then) and if they stocked cars with that equipment--you'd lose the sale to someone else who could sell the car without them for $25 less. The rare exception was the buyer coming in for a sport model, like the rare buyer looking for a GTS.

<<replaced all the lower control arms/trailing arms?>> Nope. I've made certain compromises that I can live with, versus putting more money in the car. Redoing all the bushings would just be more than I need right now.

<<you didn't think ahead when you bought your new car... you should have bought two... stripped the second for a parts mule........ >>
Hey, I *did* think about that. Just never planned to keep it for so long, and had no place to keep a second car. For some of us, renting the ground under the 2nd car for 20 years would cost more than having custom parts made up as needed. I enjoy the car--but I don't worship it. When all is said and done, it's fun, but it still is a riceburner. Now, find me a GT44, and I might lay in a better set of spares.<G>

You think the Tokicos would be firmer than the KYBs? Neither will really say much, I figured to let the shop pick the ones they were happier with rather than make more work for them, unless I could get a real good reason for some other choice.

Wanna buy a little red riceburner? Nine alloy wheels, all with Michelins?Might even make it over the Rockies this time of year, got the snows and chains.<G>

[oldeskewltoy]

Red... Don't know whats up with Moto... I emailed him about a week ago... got no response. I expect it to "pop" up again... just not sure when.

Oh no... I have no place for one nice car as it is... with my housing search(hampered by a NEED for a garage so I feel safe that no one steals it..........) I have NO need for a 2nd nice AE86. I'm sure if you post it in HR and the other existing forums... you'll get a decent buck... just make sure you say "I know Tak personally..." to any iD fan