VEMS discussion

[jamiemirror]

NoHachi, I'm far away UK and I already read vems-group.org (vems.hu etc) from the moment of migration MegaSquirtAVR-->VEMS. So I still can't notice wide support etc etc ....
BenR, any FAQ/Manual/Support (except external links) ?

[NoHachi]

Its a difference of mentality jamie.. The whole idea is that you don't need a faq, because you just payed some guy extra money to sell you a complete system. You're not supposed to debug it yourself, just get on the phone and get help...thats what I would call support, but not the diy kind you are thinking about.
As an engineer, for me, 90% of the fun is in finding out the underlying theory driving things and making use of that knowledge to make things work for my application. Basically being a nerd. Then the MS can be a great thing, but its definately not for everyone.

[jamiemirror]

NoHachi, VEMS is not different than MS in these terms. You can still get the documentation and build it yourself. You can buy complete MS system also if you prefer...
I like VEMS project but it lacks of support IMHO. Also I'm sure that there is not so much VEMS customers compared to MS ones.

[phatBob]

Aside from the surface mount technology, modern electrical components, water tight casing, Econoseal connectors (same as Motec use), built-in wideband, EGT and knock sensor hardware there is not much difference between the VEMSv3.3 and MS, saying that theres not much difference between the MS and a range of other ECUs, they have reached a level where so many are functionaly similar because they are functions that you would need on an ECU.

I do take exception to the comments about the support not being good - HOW DO YOU KNOW? I have never been approached by anyone here for a technical question by anyone here apart from Skassa.

Skassa (Denmark) appeared out of nowhere and bought a VEMS for his 20V, I gave him all the maps and information that I could and supported his installation as best as I could, he used my user guide:
http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=M...FUserGuide

Looked at the information that I had collated on the 20V installation I did on Simon86's car:
http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=M...otaFitting

And the information that collated on the other Toyota aspects:
http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=V...t%2FToyota

And was up and running in very little time.

Perhaps he could tell us what he thinks about the support.

Also, its a little thing to consider but VEMS has been designed and manufactured in the EU, when you buy one from the HQ in Hungary you're not seeing your money disappear off to the otherside of the world, the money is in the EU and its employing people.

[phatBob]

P.S The winner of last weeks SVA Challenge drift competition was running a VEMS, we fitted it in a day and a half, he learnt how to map it himself, any problems he had were solved by email and one or two phone calls.

It does not matter that there are less people running VEMS than other management systems, all of the systems on the market started with a small user base, consider this... Once you've done an installation and learnt the system you can apply to become a Reseller.

[jamiemirror]

Bob, it doesn't matter even if winner runs on single barrel carburator

Quote:I do take exception to the comments about the support not being good - HOW DO YOU KNOW? I have never been approached by anyone here for a technical question by anyone here apart from Skassa.

We talk about wide support base, not single (or even 2-5-10) emails/persons. Megasquirt has such base and support. VEMS have no progress in the last 2 years, sadly. Less users, no support, not so big expirience. I said that I like VEMS, more than MS. But that is sad the truth. If I want to build VEMS myself (not buying PCB or unit etc) - I can't find more info than this manual and some topics in VEMS-GROUP Wiki.

[phatBob]

jamiemirror Wrote:Bob, it doesn't matter even if winner runs on single barrel carburator

Take a look at the cars and drivers Paz was up against, a badly setup car would not have helped his natural talent shine through.
The point was that he took the car away from me barely running, with little or no knowledge on mapping and now has a competative car.

jamiemirror Wrote:We talk about wide support base, not single (or even 2-5-10) emails/persons. Megasquirt has such base and support. VEMS have no progress in the last 2 years, sadly. Less users, no support, not so big expirience. I said that I like VEMS, more than MS. But that is sad the truth. If I want to build VEMS myself (not buying PCB or unit etc) - I can't find more info than this manual and some topics in VEMS-GROUP Wiki.

No progress... I take it that this means a user support base, I'm talking about dealer and aftermarket support. This has come on in leaps and bounds in the past 2 years, if you were hoping that it would become more like MS then I can see why you'd think it hadn't progressed.
For example in the last two years the place in Hungary has gone from a one man part-time operation to employing four people full time.

And what you say is correct, you can't build VEMS yourself, its a production level piece of electronics that is factory assembled and tested. This is the one clear difference between VEMS and MS.

Good luck with your MegaSquirt build though, are you planning on using EDIS or coil trigger?
Remember that you'll need a wideband and EGT system to tune the system so I hope you bare the VEMS one in mind

[Bad_Dog]

I run MS using stock 4AGE sensors (no EDIS). Additionally, I have Zeitronix AFR and EGT meter that I can use to tune my car (or other cars).
IMHO MS+ZT2 cost me less than a VEMS unit.

Currently, I run stock sensors, some extras like realtime barometric correction and others, four COPs (Coil on plug) from celica '02 and I'm pretty happy.

[jamiemirror]

Bob, that is what I mean - VEMS is POOR "freelance" ECU and slowly moving to bad documented commersial solution. Poor - in terms of stalled hardware/firmware development (~freezed for at least 2 yrs) and practicaly no user support base. The aftermarket support and dealers means NOTHING for "freelance" ECUs.
I choosed VEMS route and I CAN built VEMS But this doesn't mean that everyone will be happy to do that.

[phatBob]

jamiemirror Wrote:Bob, that is what I mean - VEMS is POOR "freelance" ECU and slowly moving to bad documented commersial solution. Poor - in terms of stalled hardware/firmware development (~freezed for at least 2 yrs) and practicaly no user support base. The aftermarket support and dealers means NOTHING for "freelance" ECUs.
I choosed VEMS route and I CAN built VEMS But this doesn't mean that everyone will be happy to do that.

Well documentation especially the UserGuide is getting a lot of people into the project, I've heard a lot of good things about it but I have been working on it for the past 18months.

Stalled hardware... well mate, you shouldnt say things like that because the v3.3 came out about a year ago now, and doesnt need any revisions because it is in perfect working order.

Firmware development goes on at a pace, we've recently developed a number of different fueling strategies, theres the new Idle control code that can do the new BMW and also the Toyota twin coil IAC, overlapping Dwell has now be sorted so that you can rev past the limit imposed by the coil charge time.

User support base in your opinion is an issue, but I have to ask you when you tried to use it?

I dont understand what you mean by freelance, do you mean DIY?